Heighten Spell + another Metamagic feat

[rushlight]

However, in the SRD it does state that all Metamagic feats stack, the theory being that complexity for each feat is compounded and as it doesn't state in the SRD that Heighten spell is not an exception to the rule I will take that as the over ride to effective vs actual level.

The problem with that logic is that whether they stack or not Heighten doesn't add additional slots to a spell. That's the significant difference. So the feats that add +X slot levels to a spell stack - that's irrelevant. Heighten doesn't work like that, and the feat description says as much. It says that a Heightened spell's effective level is equal to its slot level. Your logic is like saying that since all metamagic feats stack, you can't use your Spell Focus feat. Spell focus doesn't add levels to a spell's slot, and neither does Heighten Spell.

 

[cidak]

Spell Focus isn't a metamagic feat so it does not apply.

In the PHB p95 the description of Heighten spell finishes with:

"for example, a cleric could perpare hold person as a 4th level spell (instead of a 2nd level spell), and it would in all ways be treated as a 4th level spell."

Therefore a maximised 4th level spell is 7th level.

 

[PaulGreystoke]

I have yet to see proof that I am wrong only conjecture, and opinions on how it works. The text proves me right. You all must be reading some other game because it's clearly not 3.5..

It is always nice when someone who doesn't understand an explanation takes the time to insult the intelligence of those who took time out of their day to try to explain the situation.

Rather than argue the actual text (which has already been done admirably by Thanee & The Souljourner above) I will point out the flaw in your reasoning by example. By your argument a spell that is being metamagicked can be Heightened for free. For example, an Empowered spell takes up a slot 2 higher than the normal spell, so a 2nd level spell uses a 4th level slot. You argue that you can then apply Heighten to this spell after the Empower (instead of simultaneously) & make it an effective 4th level spell at no cost because it is using a 4th level slot. Yet if Empower weren't being applied to the spell, Heightening it to 4th level would require using a 4th level slot. By your position Heighten is a nobrainer on any spell that is already being metamagicked - why not get the higher level effects if you have to use a higher level slot & have to take the other penalties for metamagicking (like increased casting time for sorcerors)? In your world any caster with a metamagic feat should also take Heighten & should always Heighten whenever they apply metamagic because it has benefits with no cost. I think it is clear that this was not the designer's intent. *shrug*

 

[Thanee]

Applying a standard metamagic feat only increases the slot level (and all increases to a slot level are indeed cumulative). The Heighten spell feat is different, as it affects the effective level of the spell - which, of course cannot be higher that the slot level, but can be lower than the slot level in a variety of circumstances.

And why exactly should that be the case?

Heighten Spell is a metamagic feat like any other. Yes, it works slightly different, but that doesn't really matter.

Applying Heighten Spell also changes the slot level, just like any other metamagic feat. The effect of Heighten Spell is, that it changes the effective level by the same amount, the slot level is changed by Heighten Spell.

Metamagic feats are always applied by themselves not in some weird combination. If multiple metamagic feats are applied, they are both applied seperately and then added together.

If you do it your way... adding Maximize to burning hands to get to 4th level, then add Heighten to raise the effective level to 4th without changing the spell level, neglects the fact, that metamagic feats (including their costs) are cumulative. "Changes to its (the spell's) level are cumulative." Heighten, applied to burning hands, to raise the effective level to 4th also raises the spell level to 4th. "A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal... The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level." Those +3 spell levels are omitted in your way of thinking. This is not possible, since the rule I quoted absolutely clearly states, that the changes to the spell's level are cumulative and thus are added together, resulting in 7th level with Maximize applied as well (before or after Heighten makes no difference).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Rather than argue the actual text (which has already been done admirably by Thanee & The Souljourner above) I will point out the flaw in your reasoning by example. By your argument a spell that is being metamagicked can be Heightened for free. For example, an Empowered spell takes up a slot 2 higher than the normal spell, so a 2nd level spell uses a 4th level slot. You argue that you can then apply Heighten to this spell after the Empower (instead of simultaneously) & make it an effective 4th level spell at no cost because it is using a 4th level slot. Yet if Empower weren't being applied to the spell, Heightening it to 4th level would require using a 4th level slot.

No wait... it's even better!

He said, that Heighten does change the effective level, but not the slot level, right?

So it's actually completely free! All your spells are now cast at 9th level without increasing the spell level!!! Wow, now that's a good feat!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

"Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell it modifies" So it clearly works different that all the other metamagic feats - which counters the arguement that all metamagic feats, including Heighten, are applied in the same way.

Erm... every metamagic feat works differently. What you quoted up there is the effect of Heighten Spell. The effect of Maximize Spell is, that all variable, numeric effects are maximized. The effect of Extend Spell is, that the duration is doubled. Every feat works differently!

The only thing, that makes Heighten Spell stand out is, that it is variable.

They are all cumulative. That means, you apply them both to the unmodified spell, and then add up the costs and the effects.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

And just for the record... Heighten Spell is far from pointless. It's actually one of the most powerful metamagic feats a sorcerer can use, because it allows him to use all those lowly low level spells at full effectiveness through all levels! That gives him a lot more useful spells to cast with his high level slots!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Hypersmurf]

The last time I saw this question debated, the thread hit over 750 posts and went for four months.

... and it's still going.

See for yourselves.

-Hyp.

 

[Dyntheos]

I'm not going to continue arguing when there's already a thread on wotc that's 5 months old and still strong.

 

[Thanee]

From there...

I don't see where this big arguement came from, it's a simple answer to a simple question. This so doesn't deserve 26 pages lol.

That guy is sooo right!

Some peoples ability to find stuff in the rules that isn't there, but insist it is (usually ignoring every actual rules presented to them), is impressive sometimes.

Bye
Thanee