Heighten Spell + another Metamagic feat

[DanMcS]

Ahh, but there are issues here that are different than the usual "This feat adds +2 that feat adds +3 for a net +5" metamagic feats.

This is all very nice rationalization, but you're wrong. Heighten spell is a metamagic feat. Metamagic feat slot increases are cumulative. Order of operations doesn't matter when combining metamagics.

If you heighten to fourth level, it is a fourth level spell, and you combo that with other metamagics.

Rushlight is correct, that heighten spell is one of the less-useful metamagic feats. I would allow it as the default rule. Cast a 4th level spell in a 5th level slot, get the +1 DC.

Edit:
The wording problem arose in the 3.0 to 3.5 changeover. Before, you could stack like metamagics, so if you wanted to multiply heighten a spell, you could, and the feat was just written as "+1 spell level to raise the effective level 1 step" or something like that.

Now (3.5), since you can't use a metamagic feat multiple times on one spell, they had to rewrite heighten in a way that is apparently open to misinterpretation.

 

[The Souljourner]

Dyntheos, you're misunderstanding my meaning.

Heighten Spell adds to both the spell slot and the effective spell level, you just get to pick by how much.

To use your example:

Burning Hands: 1st level spell, 1st level slot
Add Maximize: 1st level spell, 4th level slot
Heighten by 2: 3rd Level Spell, 6th level slot.

There's a trick here... you have to choose *by how much* you heighten the spell.... heighten adds a variable amount to *both* the spell level and the slot. I assume "2" just so we don't get confused.


Think of heighten as a metamagic feat with a variable slot cost - still is 1, empower is 2, maximize is 3, heighten can be anything, but you still have to choose. It has no special interaction with other feats. It only causes its own change in slot to also affect effective spell level.

-The Souljourner

 

[apsuman]

Anyway, I see no problem allowing a Heightened, Maximized 1st level spell being 4th level. After all, you've spent 2 feats (which are more precious than gold!) to make your 4th level spell act like a 4th level spell.

Not to mention, it really seems the only worthwhile use of the Heighten feat...

To the contrary, heighten is worthwhile for the save increases alone.

A 20th level wizard casts charm person heightened to a ninth level slot against a 20th level fighter.

10 + 9 (9th level) + 6 (from a 22 Int) makes the DC 25. A level 20 fighter has a will save of +6, meaning that he makes the save only 10% of the time (19 or 20 on a d20)


Also, Heighten is probably a little more attractive to sorcerers. Given that they can cast lower level spells in higher level slots, they probably (imho) want to get all the bang for the buck that they can out of the spell. I mean if you are going to cast web to slow down those guys, you might as well cast it heighted in that fourth level slot to make the save harder. Basically, this allow (at the cost of a full round action) the casting of a spell with a variable spell focus feat.

 

[Liquidsabre]

I find it amusing that alot of members here tend to have thier own interpretation of the rules and state it as gospel.

Personally, I find it equally amusing to see how wrong you are but that's just me. Note Thanee's explanation above, she covers the misconception you have there pretty well and the text. If that doesn't help ya see it, there isn't much we can do for ya mate. I see no reason why helpful and good-hearted folk on the boards here need to take the time out of there day to help someone understand the rules better when they are being so blatantly rude about it. Of course, if you find me pointing this out to you to be rude too, well, what comes around goes around so-to-speak.

You are stuck on adding heighten first then adding maximise to further increase it.

It's you who are stuck mate.

There is nothing in the rules stating that is how it works, quite the contrary it talks about effective level and slots, something in which It's clear to me you can't seem to grasp.

Lol, whatever dude.

Nowhere in the description of that feat does it state you MUST heighten a spell first before adding another metamagic feat.

It doesn't have to, all metamagics added to a spell are cumulative so it doesn't matter if you add it first or second. 1+2 or 2+1, either way it adds up to freakin' three.

 

[apsuman]

Let me speak up here and say that I think it pretty clear that if you were to heighten a spell to a higher level and you were to apply another metamagic feat, like maximize, then the level increases are cumulative.

I always thought that metamagic feats did not see each other, that's why the empower still adds a 50% increase of the random results in addition to the constant maxed out value in an empowered maximized fireball. According to this logic, there can be no "order of operation" for applying metamagic feats.

A heightend maximized burning hands would have the heighten add 3 levels (we want that 4th level spell) and the maximize would add 3 levels to the burning hands spell. The net result is that the spell takes up a level 7 slot.

 

[rushlight]

Ok, several of you seem not to see things the way I now do...

Can you give some rules proof of this? So far the only thing I've seen is that the application of feats is cumulative, but I pointed out that on pg 88 that the use of a metamagic feat essentially only affects one of the two spell levels (slot and effective being two seperate tracks). Regular metamagic feats move slot up, and Heighten moves up effective.

Also, the wording of Heighten seems to point away from the "everything stacks no matter what" interpretation. It essentially says, "The spell's level is the same as whatever slot it takes up" which is different than "The spell takes a +X level slot to memorize".

Therein lies the difference. The text of the feat even spells it out, now that I know to look for it: "Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell it modifies" So it clearly works different that all the other metamagic feats - which counters the arguement that all metamagic feats, including Heighten, are applied in the same way.

BTW, it was even worded that way in 3.0 for those keeping score at home, so I cannot see where the interpretation of Heighten Spell adding +X levels to a spell came from. There's no text anywhere to support that position, and none that I've found that indicates an order of application for metamagic feats...

 

[rushlight]

Let me speak up here and say that I think it pretty clear that if you were to heighten a spell to a higher level and you were to apply another metamagic feat, like maximize, then the level increases are cumulative.

Ahh, but if you Maximize it and then Heighten, it is no longer clear.

The text of Heighten Spell says it (unlike other metamagic feats) applies to the effective level. The rules of applying standard metamagic feats say that they increase the slot level, but not the effective level of a spell. So by the rules there are two seperate tracks for a spell: effective level and slot level.

Memorizing a lower level spell in a higher level slot increases only it's slot level. Applying standard metamagic feats also increases only it's slot level. Possession of the Heighten Spell feat allows a spell's effective level to equal it's slot level (whatever that may be) - it does not add additional slot levels to the spell. That is now clear from reading the text of Heighten Spell.

 

[Oscar carramiñana]

Burning Hands + Heightened to 4th level + Maximized = a 7th level slot.

Agree with Dcollins say

 

[Dyntheos]

I have yet to see proof that I am wrong only conjecture, and opinions on how it works. The text proves me right. You all must be reading some other game because it's clearly not 3.5..

 

[cidak]

I think the problem lies in the description of the feats where Heightened spells changes the effective spell level of a spell. Whereas all other Metamagic feats stack against the actual spell level. Therefore the argument could be mounted that the Heighten does not stack with any other Metamagic feat. For example, I Heighten burning hands to 4th level so effictively it is a 4th level spell but it is still a 1st level spell. Now I maximise it and add my +3 to it actual level and I still have a 4th level spell.

However, in the SRD it does state that all Metamagic feats stack, the theory being that complexity for each feat is compounded and as it doesn't state in the SRD that Heighten spell is not an exception to the rule I will take that as the over ride to effective vs actual level.