Held and reflex saves
- Thread starter Prizdar
- Start date
Re
Hypersmurf,
As I just stated, it is a poorly constructed rule. If your abilty to react to danger is inhibitied to the point where you lose your dex bonus to AC, there is Zero reason why you wouldn't also lose it for other opposed checks.
Yes, from a rules interpretation, you are correct, from a common sense standpoint, it doesn't hold water. I don't play it that way. I don't like using foolish rules that aren't well constructed.
Hypersmurf,
As I just stated, it is a poorly constructed rule. If your abilty to react to danger is inhibitied to the point where you lose your dex bonus to AC, there is Zero reason why you wouldn't also lose it for other opposed checks.
Yes, from a rules interpretation, you are correct, from a common sense standpoint, it doesn't hold water. I don't play it that way. I don't like using foolish rules that aren't well constructed.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Re: Re: Re: Re
A pixie in a 2'x2' tunnel has room to move.
A human needs more space before he can move. 4'x4' or 5'x5', maybe.
A giant needs more space again before he can move.
For a helpless creature, it doesn't matter how much space he has. A bound or held creature in the middle of a field has "room", but not "room to move", because he can't move.
-Hyp.
A pixie in a 2'x2' tunnel has room to move.
A human needs more space before he can move. 4'x4' or 5'x5', maybe.
A giant needs more space again before he can move.
For a helpless creature, it doesn't matter how much space he has. A bound or held creature in the middle of a field has "room", but not "room to move", because he can't move.
-Hyp.
Re
Seems that way doesn't it. I surely am proposing that people arbitrate "flat-footed" based on logic and common sense.
It is illogical and senseless to assume that dex should be denied for attacks that affect AC but not attacks that require a reflex save. We don't do it. Its about that simple.
The rules say otherwise, but they aren't making version 3.5 for nothing are they? Seems there more than a few rules that just don't add up. For me, this is one of them.
Seems that way doesn't it. I surely am proposing that people arbitrate "flat-footed" based on logic and common sense.
It is illogical and senseless to assume that dex should be denied for attacks that affect AC but not attacks that require a reflex save. We don't do it. Its about that simple.
The rules say otherwise, but they aren't making version 3.5 for nothing are they? Seems there more than a few rules that just don't add up. For me, this is one of them.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
[blink] But they do!
A helpless creature is treated as having a Dex of 0. PHB p133.
Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. MM p10.
Therefore, any helpless creature is not a member of the set of "Any creature which can move", and therefore is a creature which cannot move.
I did, thank you. It's Sunday here.
-Hyp.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Re: Re
That is, of course, your prerogative.
-Hyp.
That is, of course, your prerogative.
-Hyp.
Re: Re
It is logical to give flat-footed people their dex bonus to reflex saves.
When you are flat-footed you are caught off guard and cannot move quickly. You lose your Dex bonus to AC against attacks.
However, you can still move, and you can react instinctively to area attacks. Thus you still get your Reflex save, and since it does represent a reflexive action, not a concious action, you get your full Dex bonus on the save.
I disagree. They are two different types of attacks, and require two different types of reactions. Dex to AC is your concious attempt to avoid a blow directed at you, while a Reflex save is your instinctive, unconcious attempt to avoid and environmental effect (ball of fire, pit opening beneath your feat, etc.)
I can almost guarantee that this does not change in 3.5.
Celtavian said:
It is logical to give flat-footed people their dex bonus to reflex saves.
When you are flat-footed you are caught off guard and cannot move quickly. You lose your Dex bonus to AC against attacks.
However, you can still move, and you can react instinctively to area attacks. Thus you still get your Reflex save, and since it does represent a reflexive action, not a concious action, you get your full Dex bonus on the save.
I disagree. They are two different types of attacks, and require two different types of reactions. Dex to AC is your concious attempt to avoid a blow directed at you, while a Reflex save is your instinctive, unconcious attempt to avoid and environmental effect (ball of fire, pit opening beneath your feat, etc.)
I can almost guarantee that this does not change in 3.5.
Murrdox
First Post
Re: Re
Cool! Then in your campaign, all I have to do to defeat the high-level rogue is get him on an unlucky initiative roll, and then cast a bunch of fireballs on him, and since suddenly his Reflex save sucks, and he can't use evasion, I'll waste him! Great!
Geez... yeah my players would be THRILLED with this rule.
Celtavian said:
Cool! Then in your campaign, all I have to do to defeat the high-level rogue is get him on an unlucky initiative roll, and then cast a bunch of fireballs on him, and since suddenly his Reflex save sucks, and he can't use evasion, I'll waste him! Great!
Geez... yeah my players would be THRILLED with this rule.
