D&D 5E Help - Battle Master Superiority Dice Variant Rule Requested by Player

[Satyrn]

It's definitely a tricky problem, which is why I"m coming to the boards for help. I'm quickly leaning towards having it be a skill check instead of a random roll, and want to build it in a way that allows for lots of maneuvers against enemies whose CR is lower than party level, about average against current CR level, and more difficult against higher CR level, but that also rewards the player for increasing one of his non primary figure stats (i.e. wisdom, intelligence or charisma).

First off, I think you'll be better off not using a skill for this. Just an ability check. This way you can prevent the unexpected stacking stuff that could come from multiclassing with rogue, or other skill boosts. So just an Int, Wis or Cha check. (You can still give him proficiency on these checks)

To be a little more crazy on this, you could require that the BM must use all three of them. By either preventing the same skill from working twice in one combat (or on the same opponent) or requiring the BM use all 3 before repeating an ability use.

To be limiting, you can require the BM use his bonus action for the check.

 

[OB1]

First off, I think you'll be better off not using a skill for this. Just an ability check. This way you can prevent the unexpected stacking stuff that could come from multiclassing with rogue, or other skill boosts. So just an Int, Wis or Cha check. (You can still give him proficiency on these checks)

To be a little more crazy on this, you could require that the BM must use all three of them. By either preventing the same skill from working twice in one combat (or on the same opponent) or requiring the BM use all 3 before repeating an ability use.

This is a great suggestion, thank you!

I'm think I'll leave out prof on the check and just lower the DC modifier a bit. Against a single enemy he can use each check once. Maybe add in that if he gets a Nat 20 on a check he's found a flaw in the opponents defenses and no longer has to check to get maneuvers against that enemy (but still only one maneuver per round), but a Nat 1 means he has disadvantage on his next attack and can no longer check against that enemy.

So the DCs I'm thinking of would now be CR + 12 (3rd level), 9 (7th level), 6 (15th level), and also give advantage on the check at 15th level against an enemy the Battle Master has fought before. This is going to make it pretty difficult to hit high CR opponents, but wipe the floor with low cr ones, which really makes a lot of sense. Any thoughts on if it's too high though? Would 12,8,4 or 12,7,2 possibly work better for the progression?

 

[Satyrn]

I wouldn't even try guessing at which DC values you should use. That will require playtesting.

So just go with your gut, but tell your player that the numbers are subject to change.

 

[Satyrn]

Against a single enemy he can use each check once. Maybe add in that if he gets a Nat 20 on a check he's found a flaw in the opponents defenses and no longer has to check to get maneuvers against that enemy (but still only one maneuver per round), but a Nat 1 means he has disadvantage on his next attack and can no longer check against that enemy.

That Nat 20 thing looks awesome. The Nat 1 thing complements it well, too.

So I actually hesitate to offer other possibilities for Nat 20. But oh well:

Perhaps on a Nat 20 he gains 2 superiority dice for the round.
Or on a Nat 20, his 3 available checks against this opponent reset.

 

[OB1]

[MENTION=6801204]Satyrn[/MENTION] - Gonna allow 2 maneuvers on a nat 20 for sure. I agree that it's gonna need some play testing to be sure, and my player will agree to adjust if it proves necessary, but would still like to get at least close with the initial array. Gonna attempt some math now.

For CR=PC Level opponents, I'd like to keep the odds of a maneuver around once per four rounds. This is a little worse than the 4 per 10-12 rounds that the short rest mechanic grants, but should be made up for with lots more maneuvers against lower CR enemies.

12,9,6 DC array, PC will have a +1, +0 and -1 in Wis, Int and Cha respectively

At 3rd level Against a CR 3 monster, he would need between 14-16 (25%, 3 per short rest)
At 7th level,Against a CR 7 he would need between 15-17 (20%, 2.5 per short rest)
At 15th level, against a CR 15 he would need between 20-22 (5% .5 per short rest)

That's good at 3rd level, but I think I need to relax 7th and 15th.

12,8,0 DC array, PC will have a +1, +0 and -1 in Wis, Int and Cha respectively
At 3rd level Against a CR 3 monster, he would need between 14-16 (25%, 3 per short rest)
At 7th level,Against a CR 7 he would need between 14-16 (25%, 3 per short rest)
At 15th level, against a CR 15 he would need between 14-16 (25%, 3 per short rest)

Now, it is going to get more difficult hitting level equivalent CRs, fore example at 6th level against CR6, he'll drop to a 10% chance, so the question becomes, should the DC instead be a sliding scale based on fighter level. Something like 15+CR-LV? That would make the power curve steadier, making it so that the base odds of the maneuver are always 25% for a foe of CR equal to level. That said, given how often he'll be able to use maneuvers against lesser foes, I might be fine with him having trouble with more powerful foes, "Your feeble skills are no match for the power of..." And the nonlinear progression also more strongly encourages him to invest in some ABIs that he might otherwise use to take a feat, which I kinda like.

On the flip side, not being able to decide to use a maneuver at a time of your choosing is a significant loss, so it might actually be okay to go in the opposite direction, allowing for more maneuvers since when they happen won't be as assured.

Gonna think on this a bit more.

 

[Satyrn]

Something like 15+CR-LV?

I think this would be ge way to go.

Except instead of that formula, the DC should just be 15+Cr, with the fighter's check being d20 +level +ability mod. The math is easier and the player sees his advancement.

 

[Gonat]

What if the "opening" in the enemy defences is a function of the enemy rolls?
Maybe if the first attack roll of a creature is in a stated range (of the dice, not counting modifiers) there is an opening.
This range can vary with the level of the fighter. There is not eve need for them to be consecutive numbers. Maybe a roll of 3 or multiplier of 3. Then each odd number (a crit shoud not create an opening), etc.

 

[JeffB]

You should look into tye 13th Age Fighter (srd is here on enworld, and elsewhere) and also the DCC RPG Warrior class. Both simple ways to handle maneuvers.

 

[OB1]

I think this would be ge way to go.

Except instead of that formula, the DC should just be 15+Cr, with the fighter's check being d20 +level +ability mod. The math is easier and the player sees his advancement.

Another great suggestion, thank you Satyrn!

I think I've got what I'm going to present to my player finalized. Decided to require a Bonus Action to get a Manuever Die but then allow the die to last up to a minute, and for the Battle Master to have up to three dice at one time.

Maneuver Dice
The Battle Master Gains advantages over his opponent in combat through wit, guile and the use of all his senses. A Battle Master may use his bonus action in combat to gain a Maneuver Die against his opponent by making a Int, Wis, or Cha check against his opponent. The DC for this check is 15 + the enemy CR. The Battle Master adds his fighter level to his check. If he wins the check, he gains a Maneuver die that he must spend against that opponent within the next minute. He may only make each type of check once against an opponent, and may only have a maximum of 3 Maneuver Dice at one time (though they may be against different opponents). On a Nat20, the Battle Master has found a flaw in his opponents defenses, and automatically succeeds at all future checks against the opponent. On a Nat1, the Battle Master is flummoxed by his opponent, has disadvantage on his next attack against the opponent and can no longer make checks against that enemy.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Another great suggestion, thank you Satyrn!

I think I've got what I'm going to present to my player finalized. Decided to require a Bonus Action to get a Manuever Die but then allow the die to last up to a minute, and for the Battle Master to have up to three dice at one time.

Maneuver Dice
The Battle Master Gains advantages over his opponent in combat through wit, guile and the use of all his senses. A Battle Master may use his bonus action in combat to gain a Maneuver Die against his opponent by making a Int, Wis, or Cha check against his opponent. The DC for this check is 15 + the enemy CR. The Battle Master adds his fighter level to his check. If he wins the check, he gains a Maneuver die that he must spend against that opponent within the next minute. He may only make each type of check once against an opponent, and may only have a maximum of 3 Maneuver Dice at one time (though they may be against different opponents). On a Nat20, the Battle Master has found a flaw in his opponents defenses, and automatically succeeds at all future checks against the opponent. On a Nat1, the Battle Master is flummoxed by his opponent, has disadvantage on his next attack against the opponent and can no longer make checks against that enemy.

I'm afraid it's not making sense to me. You say he has to use that die against an opponent within a minute. (Do you know how fast things die in 5e?) So does he lose it when the goblin is killed by his party wizard?

Then you say he can have up to three that he can spend against any enemy. But you established he needs to spend them against a particular enemy that he received it from. Your stated goal in this was that the RAW Battlemaster maneuvers were too "gamist". This is even more gamist in that the maneuver is supposed to be gained because the opponent left an opening to exploit. How do you use one opponent's opening on a different opponent, perhaps the goblin shaman clear across the battlefield?

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