Help beef up mental stats

[Felnar]

most of my gaming group sees the mental stats (int/wis/and especially cha) as unimportant. and when using the stat point buy system in the DMG, there is no such thing as a charismatic fighter/barbarian/rogue/etc. the general feeling is "why waste points on charisma? you have to talk to the NPCs either way" (we prefer to interact with NPCs instead of just roling a reaction check).

anyway,
can anyone direct me to a thread about making the mental stats more attractive?

or is the only option giving out experience penatlies for not staying in character?

thanks for any thoughts,
-Felnar

 

[CRGreathouse]

Ask for many (sometimes unusual) skill checks -- Int gives more skills, and Wis and Cha can modify them. Use creatures that deal mental stat damage. Use monsters and spells that require Will saves. Have NPCs insult them for being brutish/uncultured/stupid/foolish/etc.

 

[nothing to see here]

The rules, as they are, already provide substantial mechanical advantages to INT (skill points) and WIS (WILL saves, spot and listen checks etc)...so while I agree a certain kind of player tends to neglect mental stats, I find the problem more acute for CHA.

What our group did was find a new mechanic to tie Charisma to. One of the rule options our group uses is Action Points as detailed in Unearthed Arcana or Eberron. However, rather than use the base Action Point progression we instead awarded each character a number of action points equal to their (Level + CHA modifier) each time they gained a level.

Charismatic heroes therefore also tended to be 'luckier'...which is not too much of an archtype stretch. It worked without a hitch for us.

 

[scrubkai]

We deal with this by doing our talking ourselves, but after the first major exchange of information we roll an opposed diplomacy check. That determines the attitude of whomever we are talking to. The GM then applies this to the general feeling of the NPC. We then have to work on his attitude from there.

We feel it helps to simulate the fact that sometimes people just get up on the wrong side of the bed and other times you hit them right when they want to help you....

It also makes it feel like, just because I as a player might be just an average debater, I can still play a character that is the reincarnation of Cicero.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

The rules, as they are, already provide substantial mechanical advantages to INT (skill points) and WIS (WILL saves, spot and listen checks etc)...so while I agree a certain kind of player tends to neglect mental stats, I find the problem more acute for CHA.

What our group did was find a new mechanic to tie Charisma to. One of the rule options our group uses is Action Points as detailed in Unearthed Arcana or Eberron. However, rather than use the base Action Point progression we instead awarded each character a number of action points equal to their (Level + CHA modifier) each time they gained a level.

Charismatic heroes therefore also tended to be 'luckier'...which is not too much of an archtype stretch. It worked without a hitch for us.

I see it pretty much the same way you do. I was once thinking of allowing characters to gain acess to the luck domain power a number of times a day equal to their charisma modifier. This would represent favor of the gods and what not.
However I like your action point concept better.

 

[ARandomGod]

using more skill checks is a good idea. Skills should be useful, and intelligence gives more skills. Of course, there will still be some classes (say, fighters), who'll almost completely ignore intelligence. They don't get many skills, so they just resign themselves to being skill-less. But I don't really see that as ALL bad.

Wisdom. Will saves are often save or die. When used on the party fighter they can sometimes be save or have the rest of the party die. It's also used for some of the more important skills (well, spot).

As for charisma. Well, charisma sucks. They really need to redo it altogether. However, they've made a start. It's now really a strength of will, your presence, your force of personality. As such, if you want it to mean more I suggest furthering this and alter the stats attached to saving throws.

1)Fort --> Leave this one on Con. Makes the most sense
2)Reflex --> Change this one to Wisdom. Wisdom lets you see things and react to things before you really know they're there. Really wisdom makes the most sense for a save that's in reaction to something that you've had little or no warning about. Also how else can you *really* justify allowing reflex saves when you're otherwise flatfooted and can't use any OTHER dex thing?
3) Will --> This save almost obviously should go to Charisma. Charisma IS your willpower, the way it's now handled. So why isn't it also the will save?

The only real problem I see with this is that will have a tendancy to make the cleric, already a really strong class, that much stronger (you *could* counter this by lowering their will save to poor and maybe increasing their reflex save to good, but I'd say just let their will save be awesome). Dex will still have almost more impact than any other stat, even with taking away it's save. Wisdom will be just as good, still having a save attached to it, and Charisma suddenly means *something* to every class. It's such a good solution I'm a little surprised that the makers didn't design it this way in the first place.
(*Note; I myself have never used this or seen this used, but I still espouse it. It's just too useful to have at least ONE garunteed dump stat.)

 

[Spatzimaus]

All three mental stats could use some boosting, IMO, although in a skill-oriented game they're all more valuable. Incidentally, IMC this hasn't been as much of a problem because of one of our other house rules:

There are classes that can raise DEX at all costs (Rogue, for instance), resulting in a ridiculously high Reflex save. There are classes that can raise WIS at all costs (Cleric, Druid), resulting in a ridiculously high Will save. For everyone else, there's a problem; if you're a CHA-centric class (Sorcerer), none of your saves would be pumped up by your high CHA.
So, we changed each save to use two stats.

Fortitude is as much a question of physical fitness as the ability to absorb damage; there are plenty of people who are in excellent shape but who can't take punches all day long.
So, instead of adding CON bonus, you add (STR bonus + CON bonus)/2, rounded up.

Reflex isn't just about dodging quickly; you need to know where to dodge TO. An intelligent man who figures out where the Fireball is headed and knows exactly where to go to avoid it is just as capable as someone who can move quickly but doesn't know which way to go.
Instead of adding DEX bonus, you add (DEX bonus + INT bonus)/2, rounded up.

Will is as much about force of personality as the ability to see the world around you for what it is.
Instead of adding WIS bonus, you add (WIS bonus + CHA bonus)/2, rounded up.

What does this do? Well, for one thing, it makes +save items/bonuses more valuable. Under the core rules, I don't know anyone who'd use an amulet that added directly to Will when they could just get a +WIS item instead. Now, instead of a +4 WIS item raising Will by 2, it only would raise by 1. (The other effects of WIS would still often be worth it: skill bonuses, spells for divine casters, AC for Monks, other class abilities.)
Also, it makes STR, INT, and CHA more valuable, even for the classes that didn't need them. I know, STR doesn't really need to be more valuable, but when half the group has STRs of 10 or less because they're spellcasters, and the archer only has a 12 because she had really good rolls, it IS a dump stat. Finally, it makes a substantial difference between Wizards and Sorcerers; Sorcerers would have a high Will save, while Wizards would have a good Will save (from the class) and a good Reflex save (from the INT).

 

[sinmissing]

3) Will --> This save almost obviously should go to Charisma. Charisma IS your willpower, the way it's now handled. So why isn't it also the will save?

I have always thought this as well. Unfortunately, WIS becomes a dump stat for most classes, if you take WIL saves away from it.

I have also used the Luck/Action Point idea tied to your CHA modifier.

Ultimately, I think it depends on how your adventures run. Classic heroes are always flawed characters, with one metaphoric dump stat. If you're running hack fests where only fighters, barbarians, and paladins are going to survive, you're probably more likely to encourage change in character design if you offer more varied adventures (towns, social parties, etc.) Look at your game first, before considering changing the rules. As for me, I always use dice rolls for social interaction, and grant modifiers for good roleplaying.

 

[Staffan]

I have always thought this as well. Unfortunately, WIS becomes a dump stat for most classes, if you take WIL saves away from it.

One suggestion I saw was to move the Reflex save to Wisdom (if you move Will saves to Charisma), in this case having to do with detecting the threat in time to do something about it.

 

[sinmissing]

By the same token, tying Action Points/Luck Points to WIS would reflect your near precognition understanding of the world around you. You have the wisdom to see the blow coming, the spell being cast, the subtle meaning in a guards gestures.