Help! Brawl / Brassknuckles / Unarmed / etc.

[DarcKnyght]

If you want to deal lethal damage with brass knuckles, you cannot take advantage of any feat that delivers nonlethal damage only. That means you don't get the benefit of the Brawl or Knockout Punch feats.

The above quote was taken from the FAQ. If this is the case than why does my copy of D20 Modern under Brass Knuckles state:

When Used by a character with the Brawl feat, brass knuckles increase the base damage dealt by an unarmed strike by +1 and turn the damage into lethal damage.

I am assuming my book is correct of course.

Also I do not understand why a character with combat martial arts would not benifit the +1 to dam from the brass knuckles as well. I have a 2nd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do and I guarantee you that you would recieve even more damage from someone who is trained to hit that has a metal band around there fist than if they didn't.

I also do not understand why the Martial Arts fighting characters can not knockout their opponents as easy as the brawling characters can? I understand that brawl and combat Martial Arts are 2 different styles of fighting so their effects do not stack, but why must my Martial arts character drop his training and resort to brawling (therefor maybe getting hit by an Att of Opp) just to get a better chance of knocking his oppenent out. ie. Brawl, Knockout Punch, Improved Knockout Punch (which are great by the way for dropping that guard and sneaking in).

I am thinking of House Ruling that the requirements for Knockout Punch and Improved Knockout Punch are modified to add (Brawl or Combat Martial arts). I would like some imput though into what everyone thinks first. It just doesn't seem fair to the Martial Arts characters as is.

 

[Mistwell]

There was a second post on this topic in the unofficial FAQ that I think clears up your question:

More on Brawl and Brass Knuckles:

If you want to deal lethal damage with brass knuckles, you cannot take advantage of any feat that delivers nonlethal damage only. That means you don't get the benefit of the Brawl or Knockout Punch feats.

If you want to deal nonlethal damage, here's how things play out:

Brass knuckles + Brawl feat = 1d6+1 nonlethal
Brass knuckles + Improved Brawl = 1d8+1 nonlethal
Brass knuckles + Improved Brawl + Knockout Punch= 2d8+2 nonlethal
Brass knuckles + Improved Brawl + Improved KO Punch = 3d8+3 nonlethal

[I'm merely clarifying the damage here; these answers don't supercede the additional rules and conditions given in the feat descriptions.]

That said, the following answer in the FAQ is incorrect (or at least a bit misleading):

Q: Does improved brawl or combat martial arts have any effect on using brass knuckles. Does improved brawl increase brass knuckle damage at all.

A: No and no. [Should be: "Combat Martial Arts has no effect on using brass knuckles, and vice versa. Brawl can be used with brass knuckles only when dealing nonlethal damage; if you choose to deal lethal damage, you don't get the benefit of the Brawl feat."]

Now, why all the confusion? It really comes down to a single word in the description of brass knuckles on page 106: "[brass knuckles] allow you to deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike. . ." That means you have a choice when you use brass knuckles: you can deal lethal or nonlethal damage. Unfortunately, in my notes in one location I had apparently misread that as "brass knuckles cause you to deal lethal damage. . ." (You don't have a choice; the damage is automatically lethal.) If that were the case, you wouldn't be able to stack the benefits of brass knuckles with Brawl or Knockout Punch, since those feats deal only with nonlethal damage.

 

[DarcKnyght]

Sorry Mistwell but I read that post many times and it does not clear up jack. In fact I think it is wrong. The D20 Modern core book under Brass Knuckles says clearly.

When used by a character with the Brawl feat, brass knuckles increase the base damage dealt by an unarmed strike by +1 and turn the damage into lethal damage.

I do not mean to be rude but did you even read my post? It seems obvious to me that according to the rules if you are going to use brass knuckles you are going to be doing lethal damage. That makes perfect sense, have you ever seen those things used? Unfortunately I have, when I was much younger and trust me they do lethal damage. It says clearly in my book "and turns the damage into lethal damage", I just do not understand the discrepency in the FAQ.

 

[DarcKnyght]

I guess my point more clearly is that it seems to me that Brawl and CMA are fighting styles. Why should I suddenly not know the fighting styles I have trained in simply by putting a piece of metal on my hand. I gain brawls abilities by taking the feat, by adding brass knuckles this should make my damage +1 and lethal. I still can not make attacks of opp and I still have them made against me. If what your saying is true when I add brass knuckles to a character with brawl he fights as though he did not know how to brawl doing 1d3 +1 lethal. If this were the case then anyone no matter how good they may be would only do 1d3 +1 lethal damage. If that were the case that info could have been put on the chart for damage with the weapon but it was not. That is because it is variable.

If two equally matched boxers fight and one weights his gloves, the one with the weighted gloves will do more damage in the fight, but he is not going to lose out on his ability to box (brawl).

I would still like to hear some opinions on why the Martial Artist cannot knockout punch. Unless knockout punch only requires Brawl but then can be used with CMA if you are doing only non-lethal dam. Then this actually makes sense. (That is what I am doing in my campaign.)

One final thing on Brass Knuckles, the phrase "and turns the damage into lethal damage" seems clear to me that brass knuckles do lethal dam. To have them not do lethal damage seems silly (I do not mean that insultingly). If you are not sure go out to the store and check out a set (Opps! If you can find them, they are illegal in some states as they are considered lethal weapons)

By the way I did not mean to come off sounding so mad or rude in my last post but to clip a previous post over here like that was not an answer and it just seemed like a brush off. If that is the case fine I hope some others drop by and respond.

 

[takyris]

Yo Darc-dude,

I think I was one of the original people asking a similar question, and Mistwell got it from the Powers that Be. My advice would be to try it as the FAQ says, see if people in your game are happy, and then try house-ruling it -- but I would recommend trying it the way that you don't particularly love right now, just on the off chance that it's not as big a deal as you thought.

In terms of a House Rule, I'm changing how Brawl and Combat Martial Arts stack. I firmly believe that a person who learns how to bar-fight (Brawl) will still benefit from that experience when using more coordinated movements (CMA). I'm not changing the damage -- it's still 1d4 lethal OR 1d6 nonlethal -- but I'm letting the character keep the competence bonus to attacks in either case.

-Tacky

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

No need to be rude Darknyght. Do you know who the FAQ comes from? Try checking the front cover of the book. You can still knock an oppenent out. you just need to deal enough dmg for them to have to roll a mas save. It get easier when you get to the advanced class. Your dmg die keeps going up.

 

[Mistwell]

Sorry Mistwell but I read that post many times and it does not clear up jack. In fact I think it is wrong. The D20 Modern core book under Brass Knuckles says clearly. I do not mean to be rude but did you even read my post? It seems obvious to me that according to the rules if you are going to use brass knuckles you are going to be doing lethal damage. That makes perfect sense, have you ever seen those things used? Unfortunately I have, when I was much younger and trust me they do lethal damage. It says clearly in my book "and turns the damage into lethal damage", I just do not understand the discrepency in the FAQ.

Leave it to someone from France to attack me for trying to help him.

I'll be sure to let Charles Ryan and the rest of the d20 Modern writers know you think they are wrong.

 

[DarcKnyght]

Mistwell what the heck is your problem! Leave it from somebody from France! I am an American currently SERVING MY COUNTRY by living here. What a snotty reply! And how was I so rude in my post, because I disagree with what must be a ruling from God himself?! In an earlier reply I was a bit snippy and right away apologized, but I was being brushed off for obviously disagreeing and was peeved. But your reply...

Yea you be sure to pass it on to the writers because if the effects of brass knuckles do not work with Brawl than why even mention brawl in the discription of the item?? Except to say they do not work and that is the oposite of what is written.

Now if anyone feels I was rude, I have already said why I was short and even apologized but Mistwell you need to get your priorities right. This board is not for personal attacks against the French nor Americans who live in France.

Ow and Dareoon do you know the definition of Forum? Try checking your dictionary.

Takyris, THANK YOU for the only constructive comment to this post. We did start out using this situation as is but it did not seem to be fair to those characters that were specializing as Martial Artist as opposed to characters that were street fighters. I have decided that knockout punch can be used with CMA and since you need to burn a feet to take brawl to get it I am allowing those effects to stack the same way in which you are. As for the infamous brass knuckles (jeesh I hope God & Mistwell will forgive me) We have decided that wearing them causes lethal damage (of whatever damage amount you can do, be it from brawl, CMA or whatever +1)

 

[Mistwell]

Yea you be sure to pass it on to the writers because if the effects of brass knuckles do not work with Brawl than why even mention brawl in the discription of the item?? Except to say they do not work and that is the oposite of what is written.

They do work with Brawl. That's why I posted my message in the first place, to tell you the first FAQ ruling was overriden by a second one on the subject. You know, the message I posted which you responded to with "did you even read my post"?

I'm not the only one that thought you were being very rude. While I appreciate your apology, it was pretty backhanded when combined with further comments.

If you want advice on houseruling this, I'd be happy to help. But so far I am not sure if that is what you are looking for, or if you instead looking to somehow prove the writers of the book "wrong". If it's the former, please say so.

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

ha ha ha. yea that's funny. Forums are for discussion on topics. When you start being rude and attacking people then it degrades into something other than a disscusion.

For house ruling that CMA can be combined with KP, I'd be careful. As I said in my eariler post, if a character goes on to take the prestige class then they will be capable of knocking every oppenent out that they face. At fourth lvl they will be doing 2d8 plus str. With Improved Knock out punch they will be capable of triple dmg. I think that the feats were set up that way to balance out all characters.