Help change my Warlord impressions

[James McMurray]

The best Warlord build I've seen has been a Human Tactical Warlord. Go 16 in both Str and Int (the put the Human's +2 into Str), a 13 in Con (for the armor proficiencies you'll want --> Plate by 11th level), and then Chr 11, Dex 10, and Wis 8. All level bumps go to Str and Int, except for 4th level, which goes to Str and Con (again, for the armor proficiency feat).

Why the heavy emphasis on armor? Hide + your Int mod will almost match plate, and you won't be finding any special materials to make it more worthwhile for along time. you can put those feats into getting a Shield and a Multiclass (or some racial boosts). Or Tactical Assault, a really nice add-on to Tactical Presence.

Then build around getting your party members into better positions, or giving them free basic attacks. Commander's Strike is the obvious at will, Warlord's Favor is the clear winner for Encounter 1 powers. Later stuff like Beat Them into the Ground (Enc 13) is where yer headed.

And Lead the Attack for the daily.

What does a Warlord bring to the table that a Cleric doesn't? How could I build a Warlord at level 3 that would be any more useful to a party than a Cleric or at least as useful.
-Z

Tactical Assault: +3 (4 if Eladrin) to damage for allies that Action Point.

Tactical Presence: +1 (2 if Eladrin) to attack for allies that Action Point.

Warlord's Command (or whatever it's called): +2 Init just for being around you.

Clerics have no buffs like that, espeically not always on ones that don't require them to take an action.

With Tactical Assault and a base race of Eladrin (for 18 Int) you can give your Action Pointing Allies +5 to hit and +4 damage. If they're human and have Action Surge, it's +8/+4. If they're doing an area attack it applies to all of those rolls. It also makes sure they get their Daily off when they need it. It happens at least every other fight, more at higher levels when some classes start getting ways to earn extra action points. That's better than any daily, and it's always happening.

Your Commander's Strike + Warlord's Favor will also be +5/+3 (4 if Eladrin).

Lead the Attack is an encounter long +4 or more to hit against that elite or solo that you really want to kill fast.

Wolf Pack Tactics often translates into free Combat Advantage for you and an ally. It's doubly good if there's rogues around.

At higher levels a Helm of Heroes lets you give someone a full standard action once per day instead of a free attack.

3rd level choices for my Eladrin Warlock (he's still just first):

Strength 16
Intelligence 18
Wisdom 13

Feats: Multi-class Cleric, Tactical Assault

At Wills: Commander's Strike, Wolf Pack Tactics
Encounters: Warlord's Favor (+5 to hit), Steel Monsoon or Warlord's Strike*
Daily: Lead the Attack (another +5)
Utility: Knight's Move**

* I'd definitely do Warlord's Strike, but we also have an Inspiring Warlord, and I'm sure he'll get it. It + Lead the Attack make for a nasty combo when Action Pointed, allowing the rest of your party to all Action Point, and get +7 to hit (+10 if Human) / +9 to damage.

** I'm not enthused by any of the Warlord's second level utility powers. I'd probably swap one out at 8th for a clerical utility.

You won't be near as good at healing as a cleric, but some of your buffs are always on, and the others give really big pluses to hit. Multi-classing to cleric can give you a little extra boost. But if you're the party's only source of healing, be a cleric.

Commander's Strike is really nice, especially if you can afford some Gauntlets of Striking for the usual target, giving them another +2 damage. Me and the other warlord are often flanking a foe, and I give him an extra attack at +2 to hit and +4 damage. It'll be +2 / +6 once we can get some gauntlets. I also want a pair, because commander's Strike and Wolf Pack Tactics as my only dailies mean I make a lot of basic attacks.

You don't have Righteous Brand (which is very beefy), but your 2[W] Encounter power will do more damage than the cleric's, because it'll make sure other allies hit as well. your Level 3 buff does more than any of the clerical level 3s. Heck, your Level 1 daily buff does more than the cleric's level 3 dailies in terms of sheer damage output (including yours and the bonus to the party's chance to hit).

Warlords alone will get slapped around by a cleric. But a party with a warlord is going to be hitting hard and hitting often.

 

[Obryn]

What does a Warlord bring to the table that a Cleric doesn't? How could I build a Warlord at level 3 that would be any more useful to a party than a Cleric or at least as useful.
-Z

From my brief exposure to both classes (one of my players ran a Warlord for 3 sessions, and has run a Cleric the past 2 sessions), the nature of stuff they do is different.

Both heal about the same, but the Cleric gets a slight perk. Still, they both do that job.

Warlords give the whole party +2 Initiative and extra perks when they use action points.

Most of the Warlord's abilities involve (1) moving the party around, and (2) giving characters extra attacks/moves/etc. Although they use attacks for a lot of their stuff, often the attack doesn't need to hit for the effect to "work."

Most of the Cleric's abilities involve (1) buffing the party's existing stuff, and (2) blammy-ing the bad guys.

Both are effective, but both play very differently. You might not notice how differently until you see them in action.

-O

 

[NeoNick]

I've heard that Warlords (and Wizards) are better the bigger parties they are in. For Wizard I guess that a bigger party often means that there are more minions and the wizzy is best in taking care of large groups of those.

I never liked the Warlord so I haven't played it, but when I look at it it seems that the class abilities Combat Leader, Inspiring Presence and Commanding Presence gives more bonuses the larger the group is. The paragon paths Battle Captain will emphasize this with Battle Action and Cry Havoc. You wont feel this, I guess, as your group is lvl 3, but it's there later.

As an non central NPC in the group it seems a good choice to let the PC's shine more though. Commanders Strike with a good INT will be apreciated I think.

 

[Storminator]

I probably should've taken the time to explain in more detail. The proposed character is to round out a small group of PCs, as an NPC, something our small group tends to do. The DM runs an NPC to give clues, help with adventures, not really outshine or outperform the PCs, as they have a decidedly less that important role in the game world than the PCs.

Currently the DM party NPC is a rogue and built a little less than optimally so as to not overshadow the other striker but I'm disatisfied with his place on the team and was considering a Warlord as a replacement.

After looking over the Warlord, I kept noticing that pretty much anything the Warlord does can usually be done better by a cleric, a fighter or a paladin.

So let me try to reiterate my original question in a better form. In my brief overview of the classes, the Cleric has comparable AC, damage and team buffs, with better heals, more ranged/radiant damage, better controls and probably very similar [W] effects.

What does a Warlord bring to the table that a Cleric doesn't? How could I build a Warlord at level 3 that would be any more useful to a party than a Cleric or at least as useful.
-Z

If you're looking to add an NPC that doesn't overshadow PCs, then why is coat-rack a problem? Give him a high INT, and just Commander's Strike a lot. It seems like the Warlord is perfect for this role, since a lot of his powers are letting other PCs act.

PS

 

[James McMurray]

If you're looking to add an NPC that doesn't overshadow PCs, then why is coat-rack a problem? Give him a high INT, and just Commander's Strike a lot. It seems like the Warlord is perfect for this role, since a lot of his powers are letting other PCs act.

PS

Plus the high intelligence makes him good for handing out clues and advice.

 

[Slaved]

The bigger the Party is the better the Warlord is. Clerics are better for smaller Parties.

By maximizing Intelligence a Warlord can take good Wizard Controller Powers.
By maximizing Charisma a Warlord can take good Warlock Striker Powers.

A high Charisma and Furious Smash makes another Party Member look good.
A high Intelligence and an Action Point makes another Party Member look good.

 

[Diceboxisfull]

In regards to damage: Any time a warlord gives an ally an attack or allows them to do damage they would not normally be able to do, it technically belongs on the warlord's tally sheet.

Of course, I'm not advising that you keep a tally sheet, rather change your mentality about how warlords deal damage. And of course, if you do keep such a tally sheet, you may want to keep it to yourself- tactical warlords lead by example!

In the same vein, any time you move an ally or enemy to give your team some advantage in combat, it should be considered a "buff" on your tally sheet.

Generally speaking, Tactical Warlords work better, or more aptly put, excel, in groups of 5 or more. Groups with 2 or more melee characters (with the Warlord being the third melee character) with get the largest benefit from a tactical warlords expertise.

For the OP: If this warlord is going to be an NPC, perhaps you might consider an inspiring warlord for the extra healing and ability to provide status save bonuses. Less emphasis on "tactically leading the team" and more emphasis on "cheering them on" may be easier on your DM as well if he or she is going to DMPC the character.

cheers and g'luck

 

[Giryan]

The warlord is most definitely full of awesome
We've had one join our party late, to replace a fighter, and it's interesting how combat is different.
The fighter was just amazing at holding the front line, and was a rock that the party flowed around, whereas the warlord completely changed that.
Combat seems to be much more mobile now, and the rogue is very happy, before the warlord appeared he was adamant that no-one was going to boss him around, but after a few turns of the warlord letting him move to flank with knight's move and wolf pack tactics and making him get his sneak attack with Commander's strike on the times that the rogue did miss, they're best friends
The Party's definitely taking more damage now, but I think as a whole is dealing loads more, and the extra healing is useful.

 

[Baumi]

So let me try to reiterate my original question in a better form. In my brief overview of the classes, the Cleric has comparable AC, damage and team buffs, with better heals, more ranged/radiant damage, better controls and probably very similar [W] effects.

What does a Warlord bring to the table that a Cleric doesn't? How could I build a Warlord at level 3 that would be any more useful to a party than a Cleric or at least as useful.
-Z

But the Warlord does more damage and has more AC since he is trained in Martial Weapons and light Shields while the Cleric is not.

Anyway I think Clerics and Warlords are both equally useful. While the Cleric is better with Undeads, Healing and OA's, the Warlord is better in single Damage, has stronger buffs and helping the melee Characters more (since he will stand in melee too).

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, if you're making an npc, you don't need to flesh it out as much as pcs. That'll help make sure that he doesn't stand out or outshine them.

You then only need one at-will, one encounter power, one daily power, all his level or lower.

His at-will ability would be commander's strike. This at-will is analogous to deft strike in that it permits you to add two attribute bonuses to damage. The difference is that you can make a warlord so that they're 18 Intellegence giving the order to a fighter with 18 Strength. This will end up with a 1[W] + 8 damage attack which is nothing to sneeze at.

I'd call Inspiring Word his encounter power and be done with it.

White Raven Onslaught would be a good daily because then your players would be given the ability to shift each other about the battle. This way your NPC isn't supplanting the party, but giving them more opportunities to make decisions in the battle, which is better for them in terms of having fun.

You'll end up with something like this (created using the NPC rules, not the PC rules):

Human Warlord Level 1 Brute (Leader)​

Initiative +3 Senses Perception +1
HP 20 Bloodied 10
AC 16 Fort 15 Ref 14 Will 12
Speed 5
B M Greataxe (standard; at-will) - Martial, Weapon
+6 vs AC; 1d12 + 3 Damage
R Commander's Strike (standard; at-will) - Martial
An ally makes a basic melee attack at an enemy adjacent to them. This attack deals an extra 3 points of damage.
C Inspiring Word (minor; encounter) - Martial
An ally may spend a healing surge. That ally heals for an additional 1d6 hit points.
M White Raven Onslaught (standard; daily)- Martial, Weapon
+6 vs AC; 3d12 + 3 Damage, and the Warlord slides an adjacent ally one space. Until the end of the encounter, whenever Human Warlord or an ally of his within 10 squares of him makes a successful attack, the attacker slides an adjacent ally one space. Miss: Choose one ally within 10 squares. Until the end of the encounter, that ally slides an adjacent ally one square after a successful attack.
Combat Leader
Allys who can see Warlord add +2 to their initiative rolls.
Inspiring Presence
Allys who can see Warlord add +1 to their attack rolls when they spend an action point to gain an extra action. These attacks do an additional +3 damage.
Alignment Any Languages Common
Skills Endurance +6, Heal +6
Str 16 (+3) Dex 11 (+0) Wis 13 (+1)
Con 12 (+1) Int 16 (+3) Cha 10 (+0)
Equipment Chainmail, Greataxe.