Help Design a Prophet Base Class with d20pfsrd.com

jreyst

First Post
Come on over here to see what I have so far.

I'm looking for suggestions on the whole shebang, from opinions on the general flavor of the class to the mechanics involved. It's not complete and nothing is firm, other than the idea that the class can grant at-will blessings, perform a limited number of minor and major miracles, perform daily prophecies, and later, gain disciples.

I'd love to hear your thoughts! You can either post here, or on the paizo thread, or on the d20pfsrd.com messageboards.
 

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I would just rename the Oracle. I suppose the difference is the prophet wanders around, or gets kicked out of places, while an Oracle typically has a nice cushie place and people come to them, but that's flavor text.
 

I don't imagine a prophet necessarily being cursed nor having a focus. Its just a wandering holy man who performs limited miracles and speaks prophecies. While by name that might sounds similar to the oracle, by mechanics I imagine a very different thing. Thanks for the idea though, it caused me to take a second look at the Oracle.
 

Within at least one major religious tradition, prophets don't predict the future. They're not precognitive. Rather, they have a talent -- albeit divinely inspired -- to see which way the wind is blowing. A prophet's warnings about the future are almost always conditional. IOW, "God says that if you keep doing this, then this will happen."

That's not really predicting the future, and it lacks the fatalism explicit found in other types of prophets. For example, no matter what Oedipus did, he was going to kill his father, et cetera. His fate was fixed.

The latter kind of prophet, IMO, doesn't work in an RPG except in limited circumstances. The former is more useful, especially within the context of an adventuring party.
 

Within at least one major religious tradition, prophets don't predict the future. They're not precognitive. Rather, they have a talent -- albeit divinely inspired -- to see which way the wind is blowing. A prophet's warnings about the future are almost always conditional. IOW, "God says that if you keep doing this, then this will happen."

That's not really predicting the future, and it lacks the fatalism explicit found in other types of prophets. For example, no matter what Oedipus did, he was going to kill his father, et cetera. His fate was fixed.

The latter kind of prophet, IMO, doesn't work in an RPG except in limited circumstances. The former is more useful, especially within the context of an adventuring party.

Oh I agree. I hesitated in adding the "prophecy" aspect to the class but I felt that it still needed something more. The Blessings and Miracles are the majority of the class. I imagined the prophecy aspect being extremely vague and sometimes more of a DM deus ex machina tool to use to drive adventure plots. I know some (most?) designers suggest that a class feature that has its frequency of use out of the players control (see ranger favored enemy) is a "bad" design idea but I figured to use it in two ways, one, as a player driven feature that allows the character to gain insights into his deities wishes and goals, and two, as a dm-driven feature that allows the dm to leak adventure hooks or plot elements to the group via cryptic dreams. This would be a secondary class feature, not the main focus of the class. That way the class still focuses on its main features (blessings and miracles) but can also gain clarity of vision during daily prayers, also occasionally allowing the dm to drop hints or foreshadowing by way of mysterious visions.
 

Augury might be a good starting point for a player-controlled ability that (1) isn't totally reliable (reflecting the contingent nature of the future) and that (2) the DM can use to drop hints about stuff.

Prophets are community focused and often were portrayed as advisors to kings. Many, but certainly not all, were well-educated. The community and knowledge domains might hold ideas as well.

Of course, too much of this ends up with just a cleric who has a particular focus. A lot of the blessing and miracles stuff can be handled via spells, maybe focusing on cleric and/or druid spells belonging to a limited set of schools. Divination (obviously), Enchantment, Conjuration (healing), whatever else seems appropriate.

Additional schools of divine magic (or class features or both) could be linked to the prophet's type. For example, a prophet of doom serving a god of destruction would be different than a prophet of peace.
 

At this moment, the class seems to badly need some sort of mission statement built out of gaming terms. Specifically:
1. Niche - what kind of stuff this class should excel in?
2. Goal/focus - what kind of stuff this class strives to achieve in terms of session and campaign?
3. Unique schtick - what is the unique class ability that makes the class worth standing on its own as opposed to assigning a set of new feats to other classes (Bards/Clerics)?
4. PC/NPC class - PC classes rely on more readily recoverable resources, their abilities should evolve at faster pace, while NPC classes should focus more on longterm social interactions

Sample stuff:
1. Prophet. Let's make him a divinely inspired, weathered guy with bardic abilities and uncanny ability to survive hardships thanks to divine patronage. Oh, and he needs to have a mission.
2. Go for the change in established order. Relay divine message. Preach. Win the people over. Inspire them.
3. Surviving (as in returning from the grave). Doing an epic miracle (optional). Teaching (and imparting special abilities). Being able to talk to people and make them do stuff (tongues, mass charm).
4. Obviously PC classes need more hitpoints, better defenses, more small and useful abilities. NPCs can wield potentially gamebreaking powers, howevers all those powers should be limited in use.

Obviously, these are very broad strokes. Hopefully they will help a bit flesh the bis class while ensuring better playability (at this moment, the writeup does not seem to be appealing to players or GMs).

Regards,
Ruemere
 

I kinda wished I had time to work on this in detail as I've spent years and years studying the real prophets, Old and New Testament, how they operated, and what their characteristics were. You know Philip had four daughters, all of whom were prophetesses, though it is historically hard to tell if this was Philip the Apostle, or Philip the Evangelist. And in the early church the prophets were considered second only to the Apostles in authority and importance. (Before most of the other offices were well established, Deacons, what later became known as Bishops, - administrative posts, etc.)

(I've even studied the pagan Oracles, augurs, and soothsayers, and how they operated.)

In any case the subject is of great interest to me.

Of course there were many different kinds and types of prophets, and different ways in which they operated. I would suggest a little background study to discover some of these characteristics and to give you ideas for your own "class." (Though from an initial overview of your effort it seems you have indeed done some study and have made a good start to consider the subject carefully and reasonably. In my opinion it is too game-oriented an approach though, so far, and this kind of hampers the real potential of the class, which, like the Cleric I would consider far more a vocation than a class.)

Personally I'd forget the spell aspects altogether and work far more on these factors, being able to both anticipate future events and help reshape or change them, miracles (as opposed to spells which are almost scientifically pre-determined in effect, miracles are very different in nature and character), Charismas (both the ability to influence people, and to have "charismatic effects"), psychology (prophets are usually excellent psychologists), psychaec powers (not exactly like psionic or psychic powers, but more like that than spells), some Druidical type abilities (prophets were often very close to nature and lived in wildernesses, giving them excellent opportunities to observe and utilize nature and to exploit what they knew of natural science - look for instance of all John the Baptist and Christ knew about nature and natural cycles), and so forth and so on. That's my opinion of how I'd work a prophet. You might also consider linguistic ability, and scriptural natures. (Will your prophets leave writings, what languages can they read, how do they employ language, both written and spoken, and can they do so miraculously and charismatically.)

I like much of what you've done here, though I would change the emphasis from being a Clerical-type (in the game sense, this is not how I envision real "clerics" at all, though) user of pseudo-scientific pre-programmed Divine magic, to being a fluid and adaptable and miracle working/prophetic representative of his god, imbued with certain Divine energy and a Divine relationship that makes him basically unpredictable. (If you look at many real world prophets they were often extremely unpredictable in the way they went about working, and even predicting events - ironically enough, but not really when you consider the nature of their activities. Being unpredictable (even cryptic, another aspect of the prophet I would emphasize) about prediction makes a great deal of sense when you consider the nature of their relationship to both God, and to the subjects [both events and people] they were addressing.)

On the other hand you had basically priestly prophets, and their mythologies were every different, for instance use of the Ark of the Covenant, holy implements, and the Urim and the Thummin. (I find it fascinating that within the middle of a strict, revelatory religion like Judaism, full of individual men and women who were prophets and judges, you also had a basically "chance based" tool driven method of resolving disputes and even of predicting possible or likely events.) Interestingly enough over time many personal items of prophets became imbued with Divine energy, staves and vestments, etc. So smites you had items being either given or transformed by God, the staff of Moses and the Rod of Aaron, then other times implements became a sort of iconic focus for other prophets (Elijah), and then at other times you had almost state or religious type implements and divine vessels. I might even mention things like shrouds and burial cloths, and the relics of hermits, etc. Portraying the same basic motifs and transmitting the same types of ideals and influences.

So you had assisted and focused and relical prophecy, tool based prophecy (Urim and Thummin, I Ching, etc.) and you had open-ended prophecy, and so forth and so on.

Here are some of my ideas on the same basic subjects:

On Magic and Miracles

Playing God


I imagine there's much more on the same general subjects my blog but I don't really have time to look it up right now. Anywho, maybe I can come back to this later.


Within at least one major religious tradition, prophets don't predict the future. They're not precognitive. Rather, they have a talent -- albeit divinely inspired -- to see which way the wind is blowing. A prophet's warnings about the future are almost always conditional. IOW, "God says that if you keep doing this, then this will happen."

That's not really predicting the future, and it lacks the fatalism explicit found in other types of prophets. For example, no matter what Oedipus did, he was going to kill his father, et cetera. His fate was fixed.

The latter kind of prophet, IMO, doesn't work in an RPG except in limited circumstances. The former is more useful, especially within the context of an adventuring party.

I definitely agree with what Mark said here. Real prophecy is far more fascinating than merely predicting the future, although that is interesting in and of itself. It is a much, much greater discipline, one I think that can be learned and studied like any skill (though personally I think that without a direct and personal relationship with God you are likely to be either very bad at it, or at least your efforts will be corrupted or confused), because it is not just about predicting or anticipating events and reading psychological inclinations, but about influencing events towards a better outcome, and about inflecting psyches (as the Greeks meant the term, that is, souls) and minds towards better conditions and behavior.

Therefore I also agree with these general ideas as well. Interesting that the bardic concept should be mentioned as there were sub-groups of prophets who engaged in ecstatic behavior using music and dance as a focus for their activities and work. Plus many bardic abilities were "influence-based." Prophets were often excellent survivalists as well.

1. Prophet. Let's make him a divinely inspired, weathered guy with bardic abilities and uncanny ability to survive hardships thanks to divine patronage. Oh, and he needs to have a mission.
2. Go for the change in established order. Relay divine message. Preach. Win the people over. Inspire them.
3. Surviving (as in returning from the grave). Doing an epic miracle (optional). Teaching (and imparting special abilities). Being able to talk to people and make them do stuff (tongues, mass charm).


Anyway, I'm way too swamped to continue this now.

But good luck and Godspeed on your project. I'll check back up on it again as I'm also developing a prophet and working on expand the way Miracles (a related subject to prophecy in my opinion, miracles being unpredictable benefits of God, often transmitted through a medium or agency, and prophecies being cooperative anticipations of the future between men and God with the intent of indirect or direct intervention, often cyclical or repeated interventional and influence, in human history and behavior) work in my game.

Gotta bug.
Had to write fast.

Later.
 

Wow, overnight this thread went from moderately useful to filled with info. I have to take some time to ingest all of the knowledge shared and then see how to incorporate it into the class. I really like and appreciate the time taken on these responses and I'll try my best to process the info into the class. I'll probably respond on a more "point by point" basis in a bit but right now I want to read it through again and then see what I can do with it.
 

1. Niche - what kind of stuff this class should excel in?
1. Prophet. Let's make him a divinely inspired, weathered guy with bardic abilities and uncanny ability to survive hardships thanks to divine patronage. Oh, and he needs to have a mission.

I like your idea of identifying a niche. I imagine a prophet replacing a cleric in a party, or, perhaps being *just* an NPC class. An NPC PC's encounter in town speaking prophecies on a hill or healing the towns sick. In the former, as a PC, a prophet would be helpful in providing aid and comfort to the group but obviously a prophet would usually be so divinely driven that his association with other PC's would depend on their acceptance of his preachings.

2. Goal/focus - what kind of stuff this class strives to achieve in terms of session and campaign?
2. Go for the change in established order. Relay divine message. Preach. Win the people over. Inspire them.

Hmm. "What kind of stuff this class strives to achieve in terms of session and campaign"... I suppose I just imagine that it might be neat (non-specific non-game term lol) to just get to roleplay this sort of character... deeply connected to his deity, not a spellcaster so he doesn't have to memorize/prepare spells etc. I guess I just see the guy walking around town, an accepted prophet by the townies, and healing by having others touching the hem of his cloak, being full of win from a RP perspective.

3. Unique schtick - what is the unique class ability that makes the class worth standing on its own as opposed to assigning a set of new feats to other classes (Bards/Clerics)?
3. Surviving (as in returning from the grave). Doing an epic miracle (optional). Teaching (and imparting special abilities). Being able to talk to people and make them do stuff (tongues, mass charm).

Unique aspects would be:

Blessings one at a time, but at will, and the character can leave them active forever (until he uses a new one). For example, he could bless his friend (effects of the bless spell but one target only) and it remains in effect indefinitely (until he changes blessings).

Perform any miracle without having to choose spells ahead of time. Minor and major miracles separate power into two groups of power.

A limited "leadership" or cohort feature (disciples).

I do like the "surviving" idea you present. I had originally imagined a major miracle being the ability to raise the dead etc, but having a proactive raise dead on self being "stored" would be exceptionally cool too. Have a restriction such as "if the character dies he rises again in X days, so long as his body is not destroyed." I can even imagine a "capstone" class feature of the class being an epic miracle... parting seas, bringing plagues, wiping out armies etc. Massive stuff.

4. PC/NPC class - PC classes rely on more readily recoverable resources, their abilities should evolve at faster pace, while NPC classes should focus more on longterm social interactions
4. Obviously PC classes need more hitpoints, better defenses, more small and useful abilities. NPCs can wield potentially gamebreaking powers, howevers all those powers should be limited in use.

Yeah, there is a possibility this class could go either way. By targeting a PC class you have to keep "balance" in mind but if limiting to an NPC class only you can let go of "balance" and focus more on flavor. Right now I'd like to plan for a PC class but if it becomes too hard to manage I could be fine with going just NPC class.

Obviously, these are very broad strokes. Hopefully they will help a bit flesh the bis class while ensuring better playability (at this moment, the writeup does not seem to be appealing to players or GMs).

While they are broad strokes they do give good, specific ideas. I'd like to know why you would say it is not appealing to either players or GM's. Not that I am being any sort of accusatory, just because I personally see this as full of roleplaying possibilities.
 

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