D&D 5E Help: Getting rid of spell slots

[Jer]

Looking for feedback form people who have played more systems, have used the spell poing system from the DMG, or have ideas on what I am trying to do.

IME - Spellcasting systems that use a skill check/target number setup like you're proposing also typically include some kind of resource that depletes with casting (often the caster's health) to provide a reason why the caster isn't just always casting spells all of the time. I've also seen systems where missing the target number causes a hideous backlash that does horrible things the more you fumble the roll by, though I'm not a fan of punishing players for bad rolls personally. The only ones I can think of that don't have something like that tend to be superhero games where the spellcaster is in a world where everyone else has reliable powers they can access all of the time and mechanically spellcasters are exchanging reliability for versatility - I played with using something like that in D&D back in my youthful days, but I never could get the balance to work right.

I would also suggest if you want to keep a D&D like flavor on the system that you have some kind of way of preventing a 1st level character from casting 9th level spells - unless you like the idea of having access to Meteor Swarm and Power Word Kill, in which case knock yourself out. It's actually probably more of a problem with the healing spells - the spell slot restrictions keep healing spells to a certain level. Remove that restriction and you should expect everyone to be at full health pretty much all of the time unless you've given the spellcaster some kind of limited resource like mana or tied spellcasting to their health (which opens up weird questions about the caster using healing spells to heal themselves and whether there's a net gain or net loss there - a rabbit hole down which I also ventured in my misspent youth).

Finally: if you haven't looked at it you should check out the Ars Magica magic system. Pretty much the a number one go-to skillcheck spellcasting system in my book. Of course that game presumes that everyone will be a wizard so it isn't balanced at all for D&D play, but it's worth checking out for ideas.

 

[wmcook]

Max spell level would definitely stay but the option to allow some casters to overchannel is on the table with the right rules to go with it.

 

[Mercule]

I'm not a huge fan of the slot system, myself. My preference would be a "bottomless" skill system, but I really don't think one could be built onto the D&D chassis without voiding most of the actual system. The best you're probably going to get is spell points, which is how I voted. Without understanding the classless mods you've put in place, I won't hazard a guess on how to balance it, though.

Which brings me to: Classes are kinda core to what makes D&D, right along with levels. I can't really think of a chance that would throw off more baseline assumptions for a player coming to your table from another D&D game. I really don't care what you're playing at your table, and would never throw shade on someone building their own system and looting liberally from another -- that's pretty much what I did for most of the late 80s and early 90s. It's a bit disingenuous, though, to get snippy at people who question why you'd bother using D&D. I couldn't tell you where the line is, but you're definitely somewhere past it. You ain't playing D&D, anymore. Again, that doesn't bother me in the slightest.

On the other hand, it may not be appropriate for folks to get snippy with you about why you don't pick another off-the-shelf game, either. I'd be curious what drives your choice of D&D for the base vs. something like GURPS or Hero that are built to be toolkits.

 

[wmcook]

There's a difference between you shouldn't be trying to play d&d that way and saying you might look at so and so system system.

I'll admit I might be a bit snippy on the subject because of forums about classless systems and getting that over and over. Helpful suggestions about other systems are welcomed but just comming in and stating you shouldn't try doing that with d&d is just a waste of the forum space.

I have looked at other systems and some people have posted things I will be looking at.

I've always come back to d&d because I find less I don't like about it than what I ended up liking about the other systems. I don't want to get into my classless system because that isn't what this post was for but I about have it where I want it. Its basically the class abilities broken out into a point buy. I do like the classic d&d abilities and feel and just wanted more ability to mix and match.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Didn't read the whole thread, so someone may have mentioned this...

Why not use "The Atlantean System" ("The Arcanum", was by Bard games back in the 80's). It has a really simple system: a caster can cast a number of spells per day equal to their level +1. That's it. That's the whole system. It doesn't matter what level it is that you cast, and you don't "forget" spells you know.

For a D&D version, maybe you would want to add the "memorized spells" as per the book...but keep the Level+1 spells per day. That way you still are limited in the 'number' of spells you can have available at any given time, but you can cast whatever the heck you want. Obviously this WILL reduce the number of spells a caster can throw per day, but it gets away from a detailed spell point system and the whole 'spell level' thing.

It works for The Arcanum, which is quite similar to 1e AD&D in many ways.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Corwin]

I do plan on having some sort of penalty if you fail the dc by x amount to counter spell spamming but that was mostly for our of combat situations.

Where 'x' = level cast at? Cuz that would be kinda cool. Casting more potent spells has a greater risk of something going wrong. Casting magic missile at 1st level you only get trouble if you miss by 1. But cast magic missile at 6th level and you have problems if you fail by 6 or less.

 

[Mercule]

I've always come back to d&d because I find less I don't like about it than what I ended up liking about the other systems. I don't want to get into my classless system because that isn't what this post was for but I about have it where I want it. Its basically the class abilities broken out into a point buy. I do like the classic d&d abilities and feel and just wanted more ability to mix and match.

Fair enough. FWIW, I'm starting to consider that, when my PotA game wraps, I may switch to Fate, but continue to use D&D 5E for inspiration for specific spell effects, character abilities (stunts), etc. I've never cared for spell slots, myself, and I'm also getting a bit burnt out on any conversations around rules minutia. I just want to sit down and play. Fate looks like a good system, for that.

Personally, I didn't care for GURPS, mechanically. It's been 25+ years since I played it, so I can't recall the details. I just know I had an extremely negative reaction to the system. YMMV, but I can't comment of the relative merits of it.

I have played a pretty extensive Fantasy Hero campaign. Enough of us were familiar with the system, through Champions, that we kinda made our own magic systems (for three, radically different, casters). There are Grimoires (spells) and Bestiaries available. It's also flexible enough that you could practically recreate the D&D spells and system, down to slots -- or swap out mechanics as desired. The main reason we don't play Hero, anymore, is that it can be an extremely detailed system. Since most of us are now married, with kids, full-time jobs, various outside activities, we're just looking for beer and pretzels. Honestly, playing LMoP and moving to PotA is the longest I've ever GMed without going full-on home brew.

 

[Bawylie]

Very simply, you can use a Cooldown system.

It's an hour per spell level between castings.

Thus you can cast a 1st level spell once an hour. A second level spell once every two hours. Etc.

If you're bent out of shape on the high end, double the time. A 6th level spell every 12 hours, a 7th every 14, an 8th every 16.

Leave it to the caster to track time passed.

Alternate cooldown:

Every spell level has the potential to recharge after it's used. The caster makes an intelligence (arcana) check against a DC of 15 + the Slot level.

If you fail a recharge check, you can't try again until after a short or long rest.


-Brad

 

[Lanefan]

In 1e (though the same principles apply to 5e) I used a spell point system for ages. Spell points were rolled each level just like hit points with the di(c)e size changing as your level went up*, with a bonus for high Int (arcane) or Wis (divine). Clerics could cast whatever they wanted (no pre-memorization); arcane casters were a bit more complex but it boiled down to partial pre-memorization.

* - with the proviso that you would always gain enough s.p. to cast your highest-level spell once.

At low levels (up to about 4th) it worked great. 5th-8th it worked OK. Above about 8th it got crazy.

So now I've gone back to a slot-based system - but no pre-memorization at all; they all work like 3e Sorcerers. At each level-up a caster gets a certain number of new slots, and I've thrown in a small randomizer so casters of the same level might have different casting abilities. So far, again at low level it worked great; at mid-high level it's OK but next time I'll tone down the number of slots a bit after about 5th level.

The only (minor) headache is that each caster has to always keep track of how many slots they have left of each level, rather than just a single points total.

So, to summarize: look long and hard at the mechanics of 3e Sorcerers, for all casters.

Lanefan

 

[wmcook]

Personally I don't like the refresh time. Too much to track. I do like the roll to refresh idea. That mechanic is already in game too.

Maybe a mana system with roll to refresh. Forhigh level spells.