Help! I need a rules-lite super hero RPG

[ValhallaGH]

A good thing to remember when statting up villains is that for NPCs, how many power points they cost doesn't matter.

So very true.
However, it can matter if the power has a Fade or other effect that deducts from the available power points. It also matters when the power is being copied by a PC, since they only have so many power points to work with.

While the budget is unlimited, it can matter how you spent it.

 

[coyote6]

That's one of the reasons I dislike PC power mimics.

 

[Rolflyn]

From the sound of your post you're saying "No" too much. Elric's reply is good and should be very helpful.

So it sounds like M&M isn't the game for our group. I concede that you clearly know the rules much better than I do. But I'm looking for a rules-light game, not one where players have to scour the book for point costs or potential feats to take, especially during play. Any suggestions on a game that could be played straight away, without all that studying?

 

[Stacie GmrGrl]

This is an intriguing statement to one who has never experienced 1st edition and who has mostly heard about it a few times on people liked the change and has read the conversion document and thinks the changes made for better balance. Care to elaborate?

Sure thing... All about Power Scale for me.

I don't mean Power levels or power ranks, but what each rank number means. Here it is in a nutshell.

MnM 1st edition is Marvel
MnM 2nd edition is DC

They ramped up the power scales across the board, DC Heroes is really cosmic in feel. Marvel Supers is more low key, more earthbound to me, not so much cosmic. In first edition, and I'm just tossing numbers out without books in front of me, but its like a PL 10 power in second edition is like 3 or 4 times more powerful than that same PL 10 power in first edition, it's just bigger. They made everything in 2nd edition bigger. I didn't like that every average, starting character was already so epic in power scale. Hence, the Marvel/DC analogy.

I also liked that in first edition your primary stats stopped at 20, human potential maxxed, and then to get a Super Strength it was literally from a power called Super Strength, and it increasess your Strength modifier instead of your strength stat. I liked that more, it was just easier for me. This also meant that your combat stats were more linked to your Abilities, and I personally like that. In 2nd edition they are split from each other, and I can't understand that. And in 2nd edition I can't get around the Power Level constraints in some aspects of the game, but not others...some powers are limited by PL, some are not. IMO, they made 2nd edition to rigid and structured, and less fun.

Building Powers, for me, was also a little easier in first edition. Not as many fiddly bits to look at or build powers with, and yet it was just as versatile to me.

The one thing they did do better in 2nd edition is Complications, and how Equipment is handled with the Equipment/Gear power, and how Hero Points go up incrementally through a session. I like those bits. However, ovverall, to me, MnM and both editions, are not that good.

That's why I love Hero system. not meant to be a thread hijack at all, just saying why. Hero system doesn't use Power Level as a determiner. What it uses is a Power Limitation during character creation where no power can be built with a total number of points determined by the GM. So if she says, Make any power you want, but no single power can be build with more than 60 Active Points, then I'm limited, but to me its more free than saying, Power Level 10. Idk why it is, but for me, Hero's internal logic just makes more sense to me. It's limited by total amount of points you can have in a single power. Mutants and Masterminds doesn't do that, and if it tried it would seriously break the system because of how rigid it is structured.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

I also liked that in first edition your primary stats stopped at 20, human potential maxxed, and then to get a Super Strength it was literally from a power called Super Strength, and it increasess your Strength modifier instead of your strength stat. I liked that more, it was just easier for me. This also meant that your combat stats were more linked to your Abilities, and I personally like that. In 2nd edition they are split from each other, and I can't understand that. And in 2nd edition I can't get around the Power Level constraints in some aspects of the game, but not others...some powers are limited by PL, some are not. IMO, they made 2nd edition to rigid and structured, and less fun.

I think they were trying to move away from so many things being linked.

PL makes it so I know there's a maximum level of power so I don't have to watch out for it and can gauge it better.

That's why I love Hero system. not meant to be a thread hijack at all, just saying why. Hero system doesn't use Power Level as a determiner. What it uses is a Power Limitation during character creation where no power can be built with a total number of points determined by the GM. So if she says, Make any power you want, but no single power can be build with more than 60 Active Points, then I'm limited, but to me its more free than saying, Power Level 10. Idk why it is, but for me, Hero's internal logic just makes more sense to me. It's limited by total amount of points you can have in a single power. Mutants and Masterminds doesn't do that, and if it tried it would seriously break the system because of how rigid it is structured.

What's to stop someone from pouring those points into one simple power dialed up to max? To put it in M&M terms what stops them from buying Damaging Power Rank X where the power costs 1 pp/rank and they buy as many ranks as they are allowed points?

PL in M&M is just a guideline to keep that in line, and you can always ignore the guidelines if you want to in your game.

 

[Elric]

And in 2nd edition I can't get around the Power Level constraints in some aspects of the game, but not others...some powers are limited by PL, some are not. IMO, they made 2nd edition to rigid and structured, and less fun.

PL in 2nd edition is much more geared towards being a limit on combat traits than 1e PL was. This is especially true since 2e PL is descriptive for NPCs based on their traits. What's a typical bonus to defense and Toughness on a PL 10 character? In 2nd edition, it's +10 to each. In first edition, it's unclear.

In first edition, the PL limit included non-combat abilities as well (e.g., Flight speed would be limited by your PL of ranks in Flight).

 

[Stacie GmrGrl]

I think they were trying to move away from so many things being linked.

PL makes it so I know there's a maximum level of power so I don't have to watch out for it and can gauge it better.

What's to stop someone from pouring those points into one simple power dialed up to max? To put it in M&M terms what stops them from buying Damaging Power Rank X where the power costs 1 pp/rank and they buy as many ranks as they are allowed points?

PL in M&M is just a guideline to keep that in line, and you can always ignore the guidelines if you want to in your game.

Because in Hero System you can only put so many points into a single power, and if the GM says, "No single power of yours can be built with more than 60 points," then that's it. Plus, in Hero system, all the power effects are designed around this, and any power built up to 60 points, whatever it is, is more or less, equal to each other in scale. Not so in MnM.

I understand why MnM went the way of Power Level, to mimic the strucutral class foundation of the d20 system...and that is what it does. Each Power level limits how many ranks you can have in different things, just like a class level does. Sure the game is technically "class less" but its not, they just hide it well. MnM is still built on the same class limitations with class levels that limit how much of what you can have.

It's point based, within the class paradigm of structural limitations. In a way its exactly the kind of game i always wanted to play, and yet I can't stand it. There's just something about it that bugs me.

It plays fast and smooth, it does simulate comic books, it does what it achieves to do, for the most part, there are a lot of neat things you can do in it, but at the end of the day, its not for me. I can't stand it.

 

[coyote6]

Because in Hero System you can only put so many points into a single power, and if the GM says, "No single power of yours can be built with more than 60 points," then that's it. Plus, in Hero system, all the power effects are designed around this, and any power built up to 60 points, whatever it is, is more or less, equal to each other in scale. Not so in MnM.

I don't think that's exactly true of Hero; 60 pts in RKA (4d6 RKA, unless it's 2.5d6 AP RKA) is not the same as, say, 60 pts in Desolidification (Desolid, No END), or 60 pts in Damage Reduction (and I've completely forgotten the point structure of the power, and I'm pretty sure it's changed every edition).

Now, 60 pts in RKA should be about the same as 60 pts in EB -- but it's not even the same as 60 pts in a HtH normal damage attack.

Of course, Hero has Damage Classes as an additional limit (at least through 5th ed.; I haven't read 6e) for attacks, which helps avoid having a 4d6 RKA vs. a 20d6 powerpunch. It also recommends setting limits on defensive values, too, as I recall.

I understand why MnM went the way of Power Level, to mimic the strucutral class foundation of the d20 system...and that is what it does. Each Power level limits how many ranks you can have in different things, just like a class level does.

It doesn't limit everything, though. Primarily, all it limits are combat stats (attack, damage, saves) and skill totals (via skill ranks and ability bonuses). The combat stuff is more-or-less the same sort of limitations as Hero suggests GMs impose.

The limits on skills are there to keep people from doing obnoxious things, IMHO (like buying Diplomacy +100 and trying to argue that you can talk anyone into being your friend), and because skills can become combat traits (inherent to the skill, like Bluff, or via feat, like Acrobatics + Acrobatic Bluff).

Also, PL is strictly a limit for PCs; for NPCs, PL is descriptive (you make up an NPC, then figure out what PL he is -- just like you make up an NPC in Hero, then you know how many active points he has in his powers, DCs, etc.), and for PCs it's just a cap. In D&D, level tells you something about how powerful a PC must be -- because every level gives attack bonus, hit points, saves, etc., so there's a minimum value of combat power. In M&M, I can say, "make up 170 pt PL11 PCs", and a player can make up a character that's actually about PL 6, thanks to low combat values & skills. Spent all those points on wacky mobility powers and every skill, maybe.

From my POV, M&M is as much a class-and-level game as Hero is. They're just different games, so of course they feel different.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I understand why MnM went the way of Power Level, to mimic the strucutral class foundation of the d20 system...and that is what it does.

No, it isn't.

Each Power level limits how many ranks you can have in different things, just like a class level does.

That's not how class levels work, in class+level systems.

Sure the game is technically "class less" but its not, they just hide it well. MnM is still built on the same class limitations with class levels that limit how much of what you can have.

M&M does not have classes. Or levels. Simple as that.

In a way its exactly the kind of game i always wanted to play, and yet I can't stand it. There's just something about it that bugs me.

Really? Hadn't noticed.

It plays fast and smooth, it does simulate comic books, it does what it achieves to do, for the most part, there are a lot of neat things you can do in it, but at the end of the day, its not for me. I can't stand it.

Oh well.

As you mentioned, there are so many alternatives, most of which you seem to like! So hey, no worries for you.

FWIW, I've used M&M a few times, but never for supers. So, strictly speaking, I don't know how it goes as a supers RPG. It's amazingly flexible, simple and fun for other stuff though, IME.

 

[Aus_Snow]

More in line with the OP, and the thread proper, I've heard good things about BASH, as a rules-lite(r) supers RPG.