Help me capture my party.
- Thread starter Wisdom Penalty
- Start date
Capellan
Explorer
Wisdom Penalty said:
It's absolutely OK in my book for the NPCs to want to capture the PCs, and to go in with tactics that work for that. If you emphasise that, it can even help make it a more memorable encounter. "Hey, these guys aren't trying to kill us ... why?"
Just don't railroad them into it. If they come up with a clever plan, they can get away.
Mishihari Lord
First Post
I'd say ignore all these guys saying "don't do it" I've done it before, and it lead to some great games.
Wisdom Penalty said:
Let me just start off by saying that capture/escape scenarios can be a lot of fun. But they're difficult to pull off without alienating your players before the fun part (for them) starts.
If you have a good group, and they trust you to make the game fun, and they're okay with the occasional railroading, I'd approach them OOC with your idea. If they seem amenable to the idea, when it comes time for them to be captured, just narrate how it happens. Don't force them to play through a combat that they can't win...that's just no fun at all.
Also, this is probably self-evident: if your players decide to go along with your plan, don't screw them over (by say, permanently removing some of their characters' hard-earned equipment). It's one thing for your players to be faced with a challenging (and fun) situation. It's another if they're penalized because of a story you want to tell.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
If the players trust you and you're out in the open following the rules, I don't see the problem with planning a capture. Some villains just happen to be well-prepared. I've done it and wiped the floor with the PCs fair and square. They were worried about it becoming a TPK (I was using fully lethal attacks) and were somewhat relieved it was just capture in the end.
I did plan a few things to make it easier. I hit them with a sleep gas that did non-lethal hp damage. That might have given them the idea that it was not necessarily a fight to the death. Plus, it gave them a buffer of non-lethal damage to help knock them out before they ended up going into negative hit points and risking bleeding out.
I had scripted out some moves for the enemy to make that would make sense. In this case, I would suggest having someone hit all of the obvious arcane spell-casters (and only the obvious one) with dimensional anchor... even if they don't know any teleporting spells. That tells the PCs that, yes, the enemy uses good tactics in general but aren't using the DM's knowledge unfairly.
Other things might help:
Have the leader yell something like "I want them alive!"
Use lots of grappling sorts of attacks and bull rushes to break up the PCs so they can be captured.
If one PC falls or is well-grappled, hold threaten the rest with his death (I know the rules make this hard, and acknowledge to the players that it can't be an insta-kill... but underline to them that, even so, getting stabbed while your friends continue to resist will still be very painful from a role-playing point of view).
Treat them reasonably honorably. If they surrender, don't kick them over and whiz on their backs like in the movie Shogun. Have the leader say, "You made the right choice. I wouldn't want to kill such a skilled warrior (or whatever) like a dog."
Above all, plan things out so that they capture is not a necessary way for your adventure ideas to go forward. The PCs, if they get lucky or really good, might successfully escape. If so, kudos to them. Plan on dropping some comments in the fight that might pique their interest to finding some way of getting the information via other means. "Capture them. We must find out what they know about Operation Grand Slam!" Stuff like that. Even that comment alone might encourage some to play along knowing that the villain is likely to monologue the information to them.
I did plan a few things to make it easier. I hit them with a sleep gas that did non-lethal hp damage. That might have given them the idea that it was not necessarily a fight to the death. Plus, it gave them a buffer of non-lethal damage to help knock them out before they ended up going into negative hit points and risking bleeding out.
I had scripted out some moves for the enemy to make that would make sense. In this case, I would suggest having someone hit all of the obvious arcane spell-casters (and only the obvious one) with dimensional anchor... even if they don't know any teleporting spells. That tells the PCs that, yes, the enemy uses good tactics in general but aren't using the DM's knowledge unfairly.
Other things might help:
Have the leader yell something like "I want them alive!"
Use lots of grappling sorts of attacks and bull rushes to break up the PCs so they can be captured.
If one PC falls or is well-grappled, hold threaten the rest with his death (I know the rules make this hard, and acknowledge to the players that it can't be an insta-kill... but underline to them that, even so, getting stabbed while your friends continue to resist will still be very painful from a role-playing point of view).
Treat them reasonably honorably. If they surrender, don't kick them over and whiz on their backs like in the movie Shogun. Have the leader say, "You made the right choice. I wouldn't want to kill such a skilled warrior (or whatever) like a dog."
Above all, plan things out so that they capture is not a necessary way for your adventure ideas to go forward. The PCs, if they get lucky or really good, might successfully escape. If so, kudos to them. Plan on dropping some comments in the fight that might pique their interest to finding some way of getting the information via other means. "Capture them. We must find out what they know about Operation Grand Slam!" Stuff like that. Even that comment alone might encourage some to play along knowing that the villain is likely to monologue the information to them.
JDJblatherings
First Post
I've seen people throw hissy-fits over getting captured instead of killed.
player- "aw crud, I've lost all my stuff!!! This character isn't worht playing anymore.." crumple, crumple, crumple ...throw.
DM- "uh, he's still alive."
player- 'so what, I'm rolling another character..."
People feel it is loss of control over their character I assume. How much control one feels with a dead PC always makes me wonder.
player- "aw crud, I've lost all my stuff!!! This character isn't worht playing anymore.." crumple, crumple, crumple ...throw.
DM- "uh, he's still alive."
player- 'so what, I'm rolling another character..."
People feel it is loss of control over their character I assume. How much control one feels with a dead PC always makes me wonder.
Eloi
First Post
The Sage listens to your predicament, and goes off to rummage in his storeroom, coming back ten minutes later.
"Behold", he said. "Grench Surrender Cheese. It will make you much easier to capture.. but much, much harder to kill. They won't suspect it, and this should give you the edge you need to discover the whereabouts of Prince Foo.. and escape with your lives, and the information."
"Good luck, fated ones. Return our Prince."
"Behold", he said. "Grench Surrender Cheese. It will make you much easier to capture.. but much, much harder to kill. They won't suspect it, and this should give you the edge you need to discover the whereabouts of Prince Foo.. and escape with your lives, and the information."
"Good luck, fated ones. Return our Prince."
The_Warlock
Explorer
I have to say, I'm with the "capture is fine" crowd. So long as your setup isn't pure fiat, I see no problem. It's a staple of many fictional stories, and it makes for a great story for the players to tell in later years.
In my current campaign of 13 years, I've captured one or more of the PCs on number of occasions, only making sure that in various lone captures not to repeatedly focus on a single PC. I have never had a player personally mad at me for laying a trap that neither they, nor their character with all their skills saw coming despite hints, rumors and clues. Nor have I ever had a player mad at having lost to an enemy group that used better tactics or teamwork than the PCs, whether capture was the initial intent or not.
I've captured the priestess of a party with a debonair villain, only to have the party try to rescue her, and get captured, only to have one escape, hire allies, and stage a counter attack, which freed the still captured PCs and gave them the opportunity to get in on the fight and shatter the evil priesthood that had them.
I've had them lose a more or less frontal assault against a slaver compound, and the PCs who got away purchased their friends back rather than engage again, still having succeeded at their primary goal of freeing other slaves in the initial assault.
In those instances where only part of the party was captured, I've either flipped back and forth between the free and captured PCs playing out their various scenes and interactions, or allowed players to play henchmen or hirelings who were aiding in the rescue attempt, or even dopplegangers or transmuters infiltrating the party after getting the first to lure the others into capture.
Don't get me wrong, it's lots of work for the GM, especially keeping everyone engaged if they are separated, but in my opinion it's not a show stopper. And I've never had angry players, though I did once have a player who argued that they were bleeding out, and should be dead. Until it was pointed out that smart slavers keep a couple priests of tyranny on hand so their product is always in good condition.
In the end, as SPoD, Shilsen, and others have said, if the encounter makes sense and is built with and executed with the rules...quality players will play with the story.
If you use the Fiat Locomotive, and arbitrary superceding of rules, you'll get mad people.
As for actually doing it...how much prep/intent does this group have with regards to the group? Ie, is it more along the lines that the PCs stumble into an encounter, and the enemies' natural inclination is to capture on the fly; or is this group intent on specifically capturing this group of heroes for some reason, and willing to expend investigative time/energy to ID the best way to engage the PCs to capture; or are they just generally slavers/brutes who will capture anyone who travels the specific road? As that will likely help you define how specialized the captors will be in their attack.
PS: I've never specifically warned my players or asked their permission to have their characters captured prior to an encounter. And that actually makes no real sense to me. On the other hand, the campaign was prefaced with "You may run into things wandering the world that you cannot reasonably defeat at any given point, but may be able to handle with planning, investigation or advancement. Logical conclusions and consequences will follow actions taken." I think it's thus more imperative that the ground rules for verisimilitude and consequence have been laid out for the run/campaign as a whole.
In my current campaign of 13 years, I've captured one or more of the PCs on number of occasions, only making sure that in various lone captures not to repeatedly focus on a single PC. I have never had a player personally mad at me for laying a trap that neither they, nor their character with all their skills saw coming despite hints, rumors and clues. Nor have I ever had a player mad at having lost to an enemy group that used better tactics or teamwork than the PCs, whether capture was the initial intent or not.
I've captured the priestess of a party with a debonair villain, only to have the party try to rescue her, and get captured, only to have one escape, hire allies, and stage a counter attack, which freed the still captured PCs and gave them the opportunity to get in on the fight and shatter the evil priesthood that had them.
I've had them lose a more or less frontal assault against a slaver compound, and the PCs who got away purchased their friends back rather than engage again, still having succeeded at their primary goal of freeing other slaves in the initial assault.
In those instances where only part of the party was captured, I've either flipped back and forth between the free and captured PCs playing out their various scenes and interactions, or allowed players to play henchmen or hirelings who were aiding in the rescue attempt, or even dopplegangers or transmuters infiltrating the party after getting the first to lure the others into capture.
Don't get me wrong, it's lots of work for the GM, especially keeping everyone engaged if they are separated, but in my opinion it's not a show stopper. And I've never had angry players, though I did once have a player who argued that they were bleeding out, and should be dead. Until it was pointed out that smart slavers keep a couple priests of tyranny on hand so their product is always in good condition.
In the end, as SPoD, Shilsen, and others have said, if the encounter makes sense and is built with and executed with the rules...quality players will play with the story.
If you use the Fiat Locomotive, and arbitrary superceding of rules, you'll get mad people.
As for actually doing it...how much prep/intent does this group have with regards to the group? Ie, is it more along the lines that the PCs stumble into an encounter, and the enemies' natural inclination is to capture on the fly; or is this group intent on specifically capturing this group of heroes for some reason, and willing to expend investigative time/energy to ID the best way to engage the PCs to capture; or are they just generally slavers/brutes who will capture anyone who travels the specific road? As that will likely help you define how specialized the captors will be in their attack.
PS: I've never specifically warned my players or asked their permission to have their characters captured prior to an encounter. And that actually makes no real sense to me. On the other hand, the campaign was prefaced with "You may run into things wandering the world that you cannot reasonably defeat at any given point, but may be able to handle with planning, investigation or advancement. Logical conclusions and consequences will follow actions taken." I think it's thus more imperative that the ground rules for verisimilitude and consequence have been laid out for the run/campaign as a whole.
The_Warlock
Explorer
Now as for how to do it?
Ambush, eh? Well, the two most important things in an ambush is to remain hidden and make sure that the targets let their guard down.
Which means in my book, that having one or two setup men to lull the targets into a false sense of security is best, though not needed. This works for either a standard slaver group that set up on a road every so often, or a group that is looking for a specific target and has forewarning.
The setup men can be people with a set camp that offer to share with the travelers, or injured travelers in need of help, or even false constables/wardens who stop the targets to question about anyone they've seen on the road.
Bards, Rogues, and Wolfweres (if the trappers are multiracial/monstrous) are best. And can keep the targets occupied with quality bluff checks and acting, or supernatural effects that slow or fascinate while the brute squad in the underbrush moves in.
If they have mages or clerics amidst the ambushers, focus on dimensional movement control, speed limitation, and visibility.
Faerie Fire, Entangle, Grease, Web, Dimensional Anchor, Solid Fog, Slow.
If a little higher level, making the targets susceptible to enchantments is also good. Mind Fog plus Suggestion, Hold Person, Charm Person, Feeblemind, are solid combos.
And temporary stat penalties spells, like Ray of Enfeeblement, and damaging spells using Subdual Substitution metamagic are solid methods.
Dex and Str poisons to whittle the targets down.
Keep in mind, if the ambush uses setup men who are close to the PCs to help give them a false sense of security, they know that non-lethal means are being used, so area effect that might inhibit them as well are fair game, as they know their group is going to be focused on waking them up afterwards. So it is also likely they would carry alchemical items to assist in the capture, tanglefoot bags, thunderstones, et al, that they won't mind dropping at their own feet.
Those would be the starting points in my estimation, to be used in varying amounts depending on how well equipped/advanced the captors are relative to the PC party so you can develop a reasonable outfit for a sensible encounter.
Good luck!
Ambush, eh? Well, the two most important things in an ambush is to remain hidden and make sure that the targets let their guard down.
Which means in my book, that having one or two setup men to lull the targets into a false sense of security is best, though not needed. This works for either a standard slaver group that set up on a road every so often, or a group that is looking for a specific target and has forewarning.
The setup men can be people with a set camp that offer to share with the travelers, or injured travelers in need of help, or even false constables/wardens who stop the targets to question about anyone they've seen on the road.
Bards, Rogues, and Wolfweres (if the trappers are multiracial/monstrous) are best. And can keep the targets occupied with quality bluff checks and acting, or supernatural effects that slow or fascinate while the brute squad in the underbrush moves in.
If they have mages or clerics amidst the ambushers, focus on dimensional movement control, speed limitation, and visibility.
Faerie Fire, Entangle, Grease, Web, Dimensional Anchor, Solid Fog, Slow.
If a little higher level, making the targets susceptible to enchantments is also good. Mind Fog plus Suggestion, Hold Person, Charm Person, Feeblemind, are solid combos.
And temporary stat penalties spells, like Ray of Enfeeblement, and damaging spells using Subdual Substitution metamagic are solid methods.
Dex and Str poisons to whittle the targets down.
Keep in mind, if the ambush uses setup men who are close to the PCs to help give them a false sense of security, they know that non-lethal means are being used, so area effect that might inhibit them as well are fair game, as they know their group is going to be focused on waking them up afterwards. So it is also likely they would carry alchemical items to assist in the capture, tanglefoot bags, thunderstones, et al, that they won't mind dropping at their own feet.
Those would be the starting points in my estimation, to be used in varying amounts depending on how well equipped/advanced the captors are relative to the PC party so you can develop a reasonable outfit for a sensible encounter.
Good luck!
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