Help me design a halfling bard!

[Darklone]

What type of bard is this? Melee bard, archer bard, or enchanter bard?

Bards don't have a lot of attack spells. They do have a lot of utility/tactical/buff spells. This means that, if you don't have a high charisma, it's ok. You can simply never cast an attack spell (with a DC) in your entire career, and still be a fun capable bard. (or, rather, cast a few attacks spells now and then, but don't think much will happen except vs. grunts).

My melee bard multiclass started with Cha 14 and didn't increase it a long time... still, DC 14 against his level 2 "save or die" spells were often enough (combined with tumbling back 20ft) to annoy the fightertype NPCs. Even if I had to try twice, it was worth a throat slitting.

 

[The Souljourner]

Definitely definitely do not take improved initiative. You only get 3 feats in the first 6 levels, and improved initiative just isn't going help enough. Personally, I'm not sure I'd bother with archery feats, because it takes so many to be useful, but if you're intent on going that direction, PBS is obviously the way to go.

And I totally agree with Darklone, 14 charisma is fine for the few spells you cast with DCs. DC14 is at best 50/50 for most fighter types up til level 10. That's not bad for "save or die" spells.

-The Souljourner

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Definitely definitely do not take improved initiative. You only get 3 feats in the first 6 levels, and improved initiative just isn't going help enough. Personally, I'm not sure I'd bother with archery feats, because it takes so many to be useful, but if you're intent on going that direction, PBS is obviously the way to go.

And I totally agree with Darklone, 14 charisma is fine for the few spells you cast with DCs. DC14 is at best 50/50 for most fighter types up til level 10. That's not bad for "save or die" spells.

-The Souljourner

CHA 14 will maybe be ok, if your bard is focused on melee participation (but then, why not play a fighter type ?), but please remember that it also figures severely into many of a bard's key skills - Gather Information, Bluff, Diplomacy, Perform, not to mention the efficency of Countersong and Fascinate - where your success depends very much on the result of the skill test. Some GM's also require perform checks to sing in battle if wounded or in adverse conditions (like rain, high winds, noisy surroundings ) for the standard "inspire" songs. And DC+1 (or even +2) for your spells' saves is a lot - for one, bard's get higher level (hence higher save DC) spells more slowly than other casters, and far too many offensive bard spells are all-or-nothing affairs - so the opponent failing his save is essential, 'cause you may not actually get a second chance.

Of course, the question remains if you actually _want_ to use those skills and abilities (but again, why are you playing a bard, if not ?). But if you are planning to play a singing fighter, consider multiclassing or playing the savage bard option from UA (which, IMHO would be a weird thing on a Scarred lands halfling, actually ) - otherwise try to play up the bard's unique strengths and abilities to maximum advantage, which are his charms, songs, social skills and information-weedling.

And - planning long-term here, of course, but CHA 14 will exclude you from acquiring high-level bard spells, and the bonus spells/day before that.

 

[two]

Ch=14 gives bonus spells. By the time a bard is casting level 5 and 6 spells, he's gonig to have a +4 to CH item. Bonus spells and minimum caster level requirements are not an issue. The Ch=14 is for a 1st level character, remember.

The idea behind not maxxing out charisma is that it does not make THAT much difference. Ch=14 or Ch=18 is a difference of +2 bonus. The point buy difference is vast.

"Even" with a Ch=14, the bard can easil be an excellent diplomat, singer, etc. Countersong is used rarely; fascinate ramps up so fast that an extra +2 fron an 18 Charism (vs. 14) is not a big deal.

Basically, out of the box, the bard is by default going to be a good diplomat/skill guy. Even with an Int=10, and a Ch=14. So why go crazy upping the Bard's skill from Excellent to Stupenduos? 99% of the time Excellent is plenty! On the other hand, points saved not buying a superfluous Ch=18 (if you are not the enchanter bard type) can be used to beef up the bard is ways the minimize the bard's "out of the box" weaknesses. Meaning, d6 hit die (up con), melee weakness (up strength), or light armor (up dex).

You can have a Bard with:
(Charisma=14 to start, saved points spread out among other stats)
Social skills: excellent
Ranged OR melee combat: good (pick one or the other)
Spell DC: average
Other skills: excellent
Hit Points: good

or (Charisma = 18 to start, relatively low other stats)
Social skills: stupendous
Ranged OR melee combat: bad
Spell DC: good (on par with wizard)
Other skills: good
Hit Points: Average at best

Most people like to be able to spread out point buy points to get a decent dex, con, str, etc. instead of spending 16 points on an 18 charisma and then just being average in a lot of other ways.

 

[Artoomis]

My personal vision for a bard is definately a skills-based character. Primary stats would be CHA and INT. I'd set STR and WIS to 10 and CON, too, maybe. I think, in priority order, I'd go with CHA, INT, DEX, CON, WIS and STR.

I'd make him an expert at non-combat or combat-avoidance encounters and he'll still hold his own, more or less, in comabt. A whip is a very cool weapon for a bard. It just kind of fits.

 

[two]

My personal vision for a bard is definately a skills-based character. Primary stats would be CHA and INT. I'd set STR and WIS to 10 and CON, too, maybe. I think, in priority order, I'd go with CHA, INT, DEX, CON, WIS and STR.

I'd make him an expert at non-combat or combat-avoidance encounters and he'll still hold his own, more or less, in comabt. A whip is a very cool weapon for a bard. It just kind of fits.

I agree, the bard is a skills-based character.

What this means to me is that, like the rogue, he's going to have a lot of skill points to put into a good selection of skills.

I don't get the logic, really, that says "up int for skill characters". They are GIVEN lots of skill points. So even with a +0 bonus to skills that use Int, they have a good bonus via skill points. Now, somebody says "up int for a fighter" to get a fighter with decent instead of no skills -- ok. That I understand. But why play to the bard's strengths to such a degree? If you are in a party without a rogue, the bard (with a int=10) will have by far the best selection of urban/social/combat skills. If there IS a rogue in the party, keep the int=10 because, well, the rogue can fill in for what skills you feel are lacking.

You know what I mean? A bard with int=10 HAS very good skills. Period. You don't need to do anything. There is no need to grub around for 7 or 8 skill points a level (in my opinion). That's kind of like filling your Ferrari with some special fuel-X used in Jet planes. You got the freakin' Ferrari. Use 94 octane unleaded, it's plenty fast enough. Instead, buy better bumpers, if you get my drift.

Props to me for likening a Bard to a Ferrari. Probably an ENWORLD board first!

 

[Artoomis]

I agree, the bard is a skills-based character.

What this means to me is that, like the rogue, he's going to have a lot of skill points to put into a good selection of skills.

I don't get the logic, really, that says "up int for skill characters". They are GIVEN lots of skill points. ...

Let's take this one step further.

My list of most important Bard skills is:

Perform (Cha) (MAX)
Use Magic Device (Cha) (MAX)
Gather Information (Cha) (MAX)
Diplomacy (Cha) (MAX)
Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int) (Some points in several key areas, probably with at least 5 in History for teh +2 Bardic Knowledge Checks)
Tumble (Dex) (MAX)
Listen (Wis) (SOME)
Decipher Script (Int) (SOME)
Disguise (Cha) (SOME)
Escape Artist (Dex) (MAX)
Climb (Str) (SOME)
Bluff (Cha) (MAX)
Speak Language (n/a) (Speaking a few extra languages is always handy)

Plus, of perhaps less importance:

Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str),Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str).

Many of those that are of less importance still warrant a few points here or there.

I know others will have different areas to emphasize, but I see at least six skills to maximize, so I'd certainly want more than 6 points per level. The build I'm working on will have 4 extra points per level (16 int plus one bonus for being human), and I wish I could do more.

The idea is to maximize the areas of real strength (perform and character-interaction skills), survival and "bardness" while keeping the "jack of all trades thing going as well.

It takes lots of skill points for that.

Finally, Bardic Knowledge is based on intelligence, so you need INT bonus for that, too.

 

[Longbow]

I once made a fun bard with high INT to get most of the knowledge skills maxxed out. Together with Bardic Knowledge he was the ultimate sage (well, at least I thought he was ). Of course he had little other skills. He was a little like that priestly character in "Dragonheart" (crappy movie but fun).

Personally I would prefer INT and DEX over things like STR for a character like a Bard (all those shiny skills, me want) and go for ranged support (you only need Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot for it) in battle.

 

[The Souljourner]

My personal vision for a bard is definately a skills-based character. Primary stats would be CHA and INT. I'd set STR and WIS to 10 and CON, too, maybe. I think, in priority order, I'd go with CHA, INT, DEX, CON, WIS and STR.

I'd make him an expert at non-combat or combat-avoidance encounters and he'll still hold his own, more or less, in comabt.

I've just seen too many people talk about bards being useless and crappy, even among my own play group... and it's usually because we'll be on a dungeon crawl (they do happen in most campaigns, at least once in a while), and their 8 strength, 10 con bard just can't do anything in the combat against anything with a high will save or immunity to mind affecting abilities.

If you're in a very RP heavy campaign, and spend a majority of your time in town, then yes, you could do very well with a skills based bard... but if you're in a typical D&D campaign that has a lot of fighting as well... you're going to wish you had put more emphasis on combat abilities.

It's not like my build ignores charisma or anything... heck, with 32 point buy you can even have 16 charisma... can't argue much with that. I just think that if you ignore a bard's base attack bonus and neat combaty spells, then you're selling yourself short.

-The Souljourner

 

[Darklone]

Agreeing with SJ here. My bardmulticlass was a typical Jack of all Trades, useful in combat, secrecy, magic, scouting and mostly anything else due to skills, mobility, spells and songs. He was not an expert in anything and got whooped more than once by pure fightertypes (which he still kept busy till the rest of the party came for the rescue)... but being three levels below the party average and the fifth character, he still contributed and saved the party more than once.

A bard has so many possibilities which you forgo if you specialise him while you don't lose a lot if you don't. If you want to fight as a bard, why not play a fightertype? See above. Spells, skills, versatility. You're not the best, but you're the coolest. And you're the last of the party who looks through his character sheet in awe and admits: "I have nothing else left."