Help me! I'm afraid to kill my players!

[am181d]

Two suggestions:

1) Pay more attention to the challenge rating of each combat. Parties can survive combats with higher than average challenge ratings, but not EVERY time. It's fun to survive a combat by the skin of your teeth. It is NOT fun to NOT survive a combat, by the skin of your teeth.

2) Make healing potions available in treasure now and again.

 

[Evilhalfling]

That being said if you really want to kill them have some big green stompy come in and wipe them out in the first two rounds, then have them wake up from their shared nightmare and tie it into the storyline.

Horrible idea, This happened to me on the first night of a new campaign with new players, and two players vanished, I stuck around for a few more weeks, but it was a lost cause. I went through a TPK where some god brought mid lvl characters back to life as a favor, but my PC was an athiest and if there had been 2nd ed rules for refusing a resurection I would have.

that said I am not against avoiding TPK or usless death but as a DM I try to keep it a subtle as possible, (bad enemy tactics, rationalized) or more rarely a fudged damge roll.

 

[Mystery Man]

Horrible idea, This happened to me on the first night of a new campaign with new players, and two players vanished, I stuck around for a few more weeks, but it was a lost cause. I went through a TPK where some god brought mid lvl characters back to life as a favor, but my PC was an athiest and if there had been 2nd ed rules for refusing a resurection I would have.

that said I am not against avoiding TPK or usless death but as a DM I try to keep it a subtle as possible, (bad enemy tactics, rationalized) or more rarely a fudged damge roll.

Yeah. Well, I did it, and it went over rather well. It was pretty cool actually. But then...I'm good. But that's just me. If its done the right way like I did it, more like a story than with dice rolls. So I guess my point is, I don't agree with the "horrible idea" since its been done successfully by yours truly. I guess it just takes the right DM behind the screen. So, maybe its just not for everyone.

 

[clark411]

As far as I'm concerned, a dead character's like your guy being in Jail when you'd rather have him out buying up real estate in Monopoly. It is an aspect of the game that goes part and parcel with the rest of the far more entertaining stuff. I've seen players complain about death (mostly from the perspective of a player myself- haven't DMed enough to kill that many chars) and all I can say in response to it is "Do you really want "d8 + Billions HP" on your character sheet?"

Really, I do all of my rolling out in the open, I don't pull punches, I don't do funny stuff. This way, every hard fight my players emerge from is a true victory, and every time they fail, it's clearly due to chance or my poor planning skills/their poor tactical choices. I know i find myself slighted when I find out the monster should have been doing twice as much damage than it was. If the party gets obliterated by DM error ("we encountered a CR Disgusto in a part of the campaign you've been pushing our APL Piddly party towards for the last three games? Are you on some mind altering substance sir?") then changes can be made... but it's a lot better when a DM is upfront about the good (you rock), the bad (Ugh that's a crit), and the ugly (whoops, I screwed up that encounter).

And as an aside, I think I've hit my limit of parentheses this week (maybe). Ack!

 

[Victim]

Fudging die rolls as the DM has its place, but it should be used sparingly if at all. Don't ever let the PCs think it is a crutch they can rely upon.

Don't forget Darwin's Theory, also known as Too Stupid To Live. Last session we had a character battling a large earth elemental. A powerful blow from the elemental reduced him to 4 HP. There was room for him to retreat, but instead he kept fighting. Note that this character was not a berserker so there was no RP reason to keep doing so. The next round, the PC was hit again and killed. Natural Selection at work.

Err, don't large earth elementals have reach? Having the PC attempt to escape only to get pounded into the ground as he withdraws would be even more stupid.

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

Herpes Cineplex, aren’t you doing your players a disservice? As a GM I am no more out to get them than you may be but it is as much or more their responsibility to make sure they don’t bite the big one as it is yours. It sounds like you do well in giving them some foreshadowing or hints that they are over their head. But if they don’t take them then let them savor the taste of death. It might make them a bit wiser for the next set. Or not. Tough to tell. If character creation is a part of the issue over them dying, then make sure everyone has at least one other out there in the wings so they plausibly step in should their primary die.

It would be more of a disservice to my players to ignore the fact that making new characters is a serious problem. (Making two at the same time is hardly a solution, either; in fact, with the one who hates character creation the most, having to make two characters at once would probably triple or quadruple the time it takes her to just make one.)

Please note that I'm not averse to letting their characters lose; I just try to avoid letting them die. If they squeeze out a narrow victory because halfway through the fight I realized that I was "playing too well" or simply didn't understand how nasty a particular creature was until it was almost too late and fudged the tactics/abilities accordingly, they don't benefit as much from it as they would have if I hadn't eased up on them. If they stick around when they shouldn't or make really bad tactical decisions, bad things still happen to their characters even though I'm not killing them.

I suppose letting them die would be scarier and would make more sense in most of those situations, but at this point I hardly care about doing my worst to them or sacrificing a good game on the altar of sensibility. I want the game to keep going, I want to avoid sticking people who've grown to like their characters with the burden of creating a new one, and anyway, I don't really get much pleasure out of one of my NPCs killing off a character. (In fact, the reverse is usually true: my favorite GMing moments have always been when a player character just completely owns one of my NPCs.)

Once they're up past the level where raising the dead is relatively cheap and easy, I don't worry so much about PC deaths, and anything short of a total party kill is fine. But at lower levels, or in places where they can't just haul the bodies back and pay the cash to bring their friends back to life, it's back to finding less lethal consequences for failure.

--
fairly unrepentant about not being a killer gm

 

[Ogre Mage]

Err, don't large earth elementals have reach? Having the PC attempt to escape only to get pounded into the ground as he withdraws would be even more stupid.

He was fighting it with a reach weapon. Even if not, he could have taken the full defense action and moved away, reducing the likehood of being hit with the AOO.

 

[barsoomcore]

deaded_beast:

First off, there's no shame in being a Spineless Puppy DM (the opposite of a Rat Bastard DM). Us Spineless Puppy DMs have our place in the RPG firmament, too.

There is no "best" way to play. There are only ways that individual groups prefer or dislike.

It can be hard when you want to tell the story of the Epic Heroes Who Rose From Obscurity to Challenge the Gods and they all get killed off at fifth level -- now it's the story of Those Other Epic Heroes Who Rose From Obscurity And Just How Many Epic Heroes Are Running Around Waiting To Rise From Obscurity Anyway? Which is less catchy. It's a basic problem in RPGs -- which are not fantasy novels.

But never, I mean NEVER ask a player how many hit points they have left BEFORE you roll damage. They're not stupid, they know that means they're NOT about to die. I keep track of my party's hit points on a private sheet, so I usually know how much they can take, and yeah, I fudge a roll here and there. My players are having huge amounts of fun so no harm no foul, right?

If you do kill someone and really wish you hadn't, I mean, heck, there are DOZENS of ways to bring them back. Just get creative. I've "accidentally" killed at least four characters on Barsoom and figured out ways to bring them back -- sometimes a little... altered, it's true, but hey, what's a little demonic possession between friends, right?

Look on killing a character as a chance to really mess with a player's mind. Which is what DMing is all about, even for Spineless Puppies.

 

[Evilhalfling]

I guess it just takes the right DM behind the screen. So, maybe its just not for everyone.

(refers to TPK, which turns out to be a dream)

Right, so not an ambush by orcs that took 45 minutes to kill the party, then
have everyone wake up just as the first orc arrows start to fall again.
I wish someone had told him that.
Anyway be leery, it seems easy to mishandle.
For a slightly different topic what is the dumbest thing, you have ever gotten killed for doing?

 

[Ozmar]

Ok... I don't know if you're going to appreciate my advice, but I feel compelled to respond to your described experience. Let me first disclaim that these are my opinions, your mileage may vary, etc...

The group started off at 2nd level at the start of the campaign and has managed to work their way to 3rd following the end of last session. However, along the way, I have somewhat been "fudging" the dice, to prevent them from being killed outright or having the bad guys do a little less damage than their roll would indicate.

That's your first mistake. Never fudge the dice.

As the DM, I would like there to be some kind of "storyline" for the campaign, with the characters being the stars. This is my personal preference and none of the players, except one, has expressed any interest in having a "story arc". However, if one of the stars is killed, it may disrupt the flow of the story.

That's your second mistake. In my experience (15+ years of running and playing games, and many satisfied customers, so I can't be doing everything wrong...) the "story" comes out of the shared experience of the game and it is primarily an undirected confluence of player experiences. The DM can, at best, guide the flow of events, but must take great care to avoid the common trap of allowing his self-perceived sense of "story" overwhelm player freedom to influence the game.

In other words, the best games come about when the DM sets up basic situations, and allows the players to react to them, and the story is created out of the results. Personally, I have the most fun as a DM in watching the story unfold in unexpected directions, and sometimes this comes about through very unexpected means, even player character death. (Also, its a creative challenge to find new and interesting stories even in apparantly disastrous situations.)

In addition, I guess I don't want to feel bad if a player loses their character.

Third problem. Get over it. Honestly, a player can always make a new character, or you and the player can find a creative way to bring the character back into play. I am always open to a creative player who suggests an interesting story pitch to save their character. They may come back as a ghost, or be reincarnated by a friendly god, or the other PCs may go on a quest to have them raised, or their spirit and memories may pass on to their heir (and new character), or... well, you get the idea.

Also, with the new players coming in, I don't want them to die during their first session.

This is an understandable concern, however it is never too early to learn that death is a real possibility in adventure gaming. Also, I have found that the "true gamers" will not be deterred by early setbacks. They will learn from the experiences and develop into better players. One of my high school buddies died on his very first gaming adventure from (get this) failing a climb check on a rope and falling into a 100-ft-deep pit. His next character lived for 4+ years (real time) and 16+ levels.

If the encounter is relatively "mundane", I don't want them to die from this mundane encounter.

You shouldn't eliminate the possibility of failure from even "mundane" encounters. Another way of looking at it is this: Why are you wasting good game time with the "mundane"? Make every encounter interesting (and exciting through the possibility of death and failure) or don't waste your time.

The thing that is really bad, is that I believe my players have found out, come to the conclusion, discovered, etc., that I may have been "pulling my punches" in order for them to survive. I guess part of this could be my constant nagging of "How much HP do you have left?" right before I tell them how much damage they receive.

This is the worst thing that can happen! I always tell other DMs: 1) Don't fudge your dice! and if you are going to fudge your dice, then 2) DON'T let the players find out!!

Personally, as a player, I feel somewhat cheated when playing with a DM who "pulls their punches". I would rather live or die on my own terms than survive 100 games knowing that the DM is unwilling to let me die. I am sure that some players feel differently, but it has been my experience that most players would rather know that character death is a possibility, because then they know that their success was not assured from the outset.

So, how do you deal, cope with, or decide when it is "appropriate" for a player to die?

It is "appropriate" when the dice say so. As a DM, I advise you to set up encounters fairly (and if you are uncertain, err on the side of caution - make your opponents a step weaker than the PCs) and roll all dice in the open and let the chips fall where they may. In this way you will increase the credibility and verisimilitude of the world and of your rulings among the players. They will see that their success is not a given, and that they may die if they are careless. This will encourage them to play more intelligently and creatively, and to pay more attention to the game (knowing that their character's lives are indeed on the line). They will appreciate their victories more fully knowing that failure is a real possibility.

I say all this from experience. My favorite recent game has had 3 or 4 total party kills in the last 3 months! (It is a pretty brutal run through the Banewarrens.) This has resulted in all of us playing smarter and more careful, and has renewed our determination to complete the adventure. After the last run, where 4 of 5 of the PCs were wiped out, the DM asked us if we wanted to take a break and try a new adventure, but we all said "no! we are determined to win!" We made new characters and altered our strategy, and the next session, we managed to take out all opponents without one character loss (although it was tough! That is a pretty nasty module!) When we finally complete this thing, we'll count the PCs that died and mark it as one of the best games we've played.

My advice is to keep it in perspective: No character lasts forever, and a player can always make a new character and keep playing. I recommend that you keep death a real possibility (if not a liklihood) and your players will appreciate it and respond with an increased enjoyment for your game.

Ozmar the Experienced, Non-Fudging "Killer" DM