Help me! I'm afraid to kill my players!

[gunter uxbridge]

I thought for sure I was heading for a TPK in the last game. I knew it was going to be a tough fight, one of the hardest I ever threw at them, but not THAT bad. For about two minutes the party Paladin WAS dead until he realized that the level in cleric he just took saved his bacon (Renewal domain....go figure.)

Then sometimes players will surprise you. While all of this bad stuff was going on sthe parties pell powers and psionic power points were depleted and the party tank was FUBAR. I thought for sure they were going to pull an Alamo and fight to the death. Thankfully they decided to retreat, something that I have rarely seen. Most players will usually assume that the DM will give them some sort of way out of any situation that goes horribly against them. Not so here, and they made the right choice.

In 3.0 I have only killed two characters. One was a case of absolute stupidity on the players part (he tried to do too much too far away from back), and the other was just a series of badly blown rolls. I didn't feel too bad about it in either case.

As a player, I usually have a pretty good sense of when the DM is fudging things, or when events unfold in order to serve the prepared materials. I am guilty of it myself at times, but if your players can read you well enough, that takes some of the fun out of the game. Good case in point....I make all of my rolls in the open (except when keeping the results hidden make sense of course.) Let's say that all night you have been rolling in the open, and all of a sudden a game critical saving throw comes up. Failure means someone dies. You can either make that roll publc and let the dice fall where they may, or do it behind a screen and save thair bacon. I can guarantee that if you hide the result no matter what the outcome is the players are going to notice the change.

In short, "Kill'em all and let the Gods sort'em out."

 

[Gundark]

First, think of them as characters, not players.

Second, don't think of it as "killing them" but more as "letting them die" when circumstances dictate that eventuality.

Third, sympathize with the players but encourage them to try out something they've always wanted to try with the subsequent character.

Fourth, be dramatic about in-game events but don't over-dramatize meta-events.

Fifth, it's only a game.

Sixth, rinse and repeat.

This sums it up nicely, espically point 5. Fudging rolls may annoy the players too..I'm the from the school of thought that there has to be an element of danger or else I lose interest. I can understand fudging a few rolls at the start, but it could end up destroying the campaign (back to the element of danger thing). Also the desire to fudge rolls will only get worse the longer you play (well I hate to kill "insert name here" 10th level character, he/she has had it for so long)

 

[Gundark]

That's your second mistake. In my experience (15+ years of running and playing games, and many satisfied customers, so I can't be doing everything wrong...) the "story" comes out of the shared experience of the game and it is primarily an undirected confluence of player experiences. The DM can, at best, guide the flow of events, but must take great care to avoid the common trap of allowing his self-perceived sense of "story" overwhelm player freedom to influence the game.

In other words, the best games come about when the DM sets up basic situations, and allows the players to react to them, and the story is created out of the results. Personally, I have the most fun as a DM in watching the story unfold in unexpected directions, and sometimes this comes about through very unexpected means, even player character death. (Also, its a creative challenge to find new and interesting stories even in apparantly disastrous situations.)

I totally agree here, the story comes about by everybody contributing, not by what the DMs sense of story is. If a character dies in a "mundane" fight then oh well, it part of the story that the group has crafted.Those are the best and most satisfying games. The ones where the DM is a novelist and alters the what happens with the dice in order to perserve some sense of story has contributed to more than one failed campaign

 

[S'mon]

But never, I mean NEVER ask a player how many hit points they have left BEFORE you roll damage. They're not stupid, they know that means they're NOT about to die.

LOL - Us Killer DMs (thinking me & Stalkingblue, the other DM in my group), we ask players how many hp their PCs have left so the monsters can tell who looks most badly wounded, so we can _finish them off_ before moving on to the unwounded PCs...

 

[Parlan]

Regarding the player who doesn t like to come up with backgrounds, why not either keep it bare-bones.

Name of Podunk village (so small it s not even on the map), Father s name, Mother s name and Reason for adventuring (Lives for adventure is a good one).

Done.

They won t be tied into the plot much, but that isn t a prob if the player doesn t mind.

Regarding fudging, people have weighed in sufficiently on this so I don t have much to add. Just one thought: VISUALIZE the encounter. It sounds like you didn t realize that some of the encounters would be so challenging. A lot of that comes from Experience, and I don t have any words of wisdom to impart. However, a great deal also comes from the encounters you choose.

Try to predict how the abilities of the BBEG are going to interact with those of the party. If the encounter forces a lot of Will saves, and the PC s Will saves are crap, it s going to be disproportionately difficult for the CR.

Nothing pisses me off more than having a BBEG wipe the floor with the party and then seeing the DM retcon stuff or obviously fudge to avoid a TPK.

Parlan, my fourth level cleric, got taken to –22 hp last session. Two ratmen barbarians with greataxes. Two confimed crits. I miss the weedy bugger, but at least he went out with a bang. Or a splatter.

 

[StalkingBlue]

LOL - Us Killer DMs (thinking me & Stalkingblue, the other DM in my group), we ask players how many hp their PCs have left so the monsters can tell who looks most badly wounded, so we can _finish them off_ before moving on to the unwounded PCs...

Er...
I've been promoted to Killer DM now, have I?

True about the hp question. Of course we also tell players who ask how many hp an enemy has left (well, the percentage of hp left anyway), so their PCs can finish off the most badly wounded-looking ones first.

 

[S'mon]

Er...
I've been promoted to Killer DM now, have I?

By the standards of this thread, I believe so.

 

[Ozmar]

Let's say that all night you have been rolling in the open, and all of a sudden a game critical saving throw comes up. Failure means someone dies. You can either make that roll publc and let the dice fall where they may, or do it behind a screen and save thair bacon. I can guarantee that if you hide the result no matter what the outcome is the players are going to notice the change.

When it comes down to a "save or die" situation, I usually announce what the BBEG needs to roll in order to succeed, and then roll in front of the players.

Example:
Player: "I cast disintegrate on the mind flayer that has four tentacles grappling my buddy."
GM: "First you need to roll to hit."
Player rolls. GM: "That hits!"
GM: "Now you need to roll to overcome its SR. It has an SR of 18."
Player: "I need to roll a 10!" Rolls. Success!
GM: "Now it gets a fort save. What's the DC? Ohhh... It only needs to roll a 4 to succeed! Then its going to eat your buddy on its next action!"
Roll out in the open. I roll a 3!
Players cheer!

I've never had as much cheering and hand-wringing and sheer fun over one spell cast on a bad guy. This method really draws out the tension and makes the game exciting for everyone.

Ozmar the Open DM

 

[Evilhalfling]

True about the hp question. Of course we also tell players who ask how many hp an enemy has left (well, the percentage of hp left anyway), so their PCs can finish off the most badly wounded-looking ones first.

I use something similar - Free action heal check
DC 10 above or below 1/2 hp
DC 15 - nearest 25%
DC 20 - 10% range
DC 25-30? actual hp
both monsters an players can and do attempt this.

I know I am an erm - soft puppy DM? it keeps me from fudging, Not that monsters won't use this info to try and kill off the weak ones, or decide that it would be a good time to run away.