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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Help me make "CoDzilla"? :)
- Thread starter charleskoz
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Cor_Malek
First Post
Dandu, you mentioned shambling mound... that's got a CR of 6. If I'm level 20 and I'm changing into something with a CR of 6 am I really gaining much?
I guess I'm having a hard time picturing myself as a shambling mound or a dire tiger facing off against CR 15+ monsters that can be truly ... scary. This is obviously due to my own inexperience... but I think part of why my DM son scoffs is thinking about a level 20 character turning into a bear.?
There's plenty of people who can give you great advice on build, so let me just explain the premise of druids power
The thing here is, that you're still a druid of Xth (20th in this case) level, but instead of being in form of a dwarf, whose CR is at 1/2, you're shifting into, let's say dire tiger - of astounding CR 8. In case of any intelligent (and therefore playable as character) race, even like the shambler, the race CR will come with level adjustment. That's because the dire tiger is supposed to be a "challenge" equivalent of a 8th level character.
It's as if you gained 8 levels of Dire Tiger. Which makes you as good/ better at close combat as fighter, but after the fight(or during), you can still cast spells. And frankly, you make rogue redundant as well, as you can open locks and find traps by using relatively low-level spells.
On top of that, druid is a MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependent) class, which is supposed to be mitigating it's power, since he has to spread out his points. Thing is - no, he isn't, no he doesn't. You don't have to invest jack in physical attributes, because you'll swap them for whatever the creature you change into has (and you can buff all attributes with spells anyway). So whereas most classes have one dump stat? You have three. You can even invest in charisma for the heck of it
It'd be cool to read a follow up on how it went after the session. CoDzillas make prepared GM's weep. One that thinks it's a weak class? That's bound to be entertaining
charleskoz
First Post
Thanks very much for all the replies!
One thing I am still struggling with is magic items. The idea of tossing off magic items and then having a servant put them back on me seems... I dunno, a bit cheesy?
Is there any more elegant way around this?
Is it worth getting say dragonhide armor with the +3 bonus cost that makes it keep bonuses when you go into wild shape?
Or is the trick -- if I am making a character with standard "level 20 wealth" -- to put the gp into items like tomes to increase stats rather than items that do so?
One thing I am still struggling with is magic items. The idea of tossing off magic items and then having a servant put them back on me seems... I dunno, a bit cheesy?
Is there any more elegant way around this?
Is it worth getting say dragonhide armor with the +3 bonus cost that makes it keep bonuses when you go into wild shape?
Or is the trick -- if I am making a character with standard "level 20 wealth" -- to put the gp into items like tomes to increase stats rather than items that do so?
Jack Simth
First Post
Not Core, no. Outside of Core, there's Wilding Clasps, but that doesn't much matter.Thanks very much for all the replies!
One thing I am still struggling with is magic items. The idea of tossing off magic items and then having a servant put them back on me seems... I dunno, a bit cheesy?
Is there any more elegant way around this?
If you refuse to go the route of undressing before Wildshaping, then yes. Otherwise, not so much.
For the most part, if you want your purchases to be effective, you'll need to do much of that anyway pre-Epic. See, you get 760,000 gp. The Periapt of Wisdom +6 costs 36k. It is tricky to spend that much cash on stuff that'll be useful regularly without using Tomes and Manuals. Especially in a Core game.
Persiflage
First Post
Seriously... you are a Druid 20. You have shapechange. Wild Shape is great, but shapechange is better: it's the ultimate all-round buffing, movement enhancing, offensive, defensive, utility spell. With a Rod of Greater Extend Spell, one casting lasts for 6 hours and 40 minutes - and that's without resorting to a caster-level boosting item of some sort. During that time, you can change form once per round as a free action. You get all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the form. If you change into a form that could normally hold your gear, you're holding (and/or wearing) it. If your current form can't hold or wear the equipment, it melds into your form until you turn into something that can.
This means you don't have to travel with a dressing room and attendants, which is a good thing.
I admit this doesn't make the point about Druids having Real Ultimate Power - any class with the spell could do the same things - but if your only concern is beating the stuffing out of level-appropriate challenges, Shapechange is hard to top. The only drawback it has is that you can't use Natural Spell to cast in forms that wouldn't normally allow you to throw spells around... but there's nothing stopping you from Wild Shaping before you Shapechange if there are benefits in doing so (a form with mighty escaping powers such as an Air Elemental is good for when your Shapechange gets dispelled).
Stack long-duration buffs on top of what you can pull out of the Monster Manual and you're golden. If you can buff your caster level by 2, you can walk around all damn day as a Solar and not even care: your magical gear will mostly resize to fit your new form so, as per the FAQ, you get to keep it. Your preferred weapons won't resize (although of course there's nothing preventing you from carrying a Large weapon around for just such a contingency), but it's a great form to start a combat in. Or, you know, be a Nightwalker and summon dread wraiths to hang out with you. Then be a different Nightwalker and summon more dread wraiths to hang out with you. They'll hang around for an hour and you can just keep doing it, so why not? (Admittedly, I can see a DM not allowing this for sanity reasons but I can't see why not by RAW)
You don't even need to waste spells on healing: if the fight gets a bit tricky, turn into something that can be ethereal like a Nightmare (or Cauchemar), leave for a few rounds and then turn into something that has "Lay on Hands" as a supernatural ability. Or decent regeneration if you can spare a bit longer. Guardinals are good - they can heal their full normal hit points with their paladinesque healy goodness.
And remember: you can share spells with your animal companion. Including shapechange. OK, it has to remain within 5 feet of you once cast, but two asswhuppin' machines for the price of one is not to be sneezed at.
Or... be a Balor. A raft of immunities and true seeing continuously? Yes please. But you have an animal companion, so be TWO Balors. Strictly speaking, you even get the +1 vorpal longsword, on the grounds that it's listed as a supernatural ability. Pit Fiends are good melee types, too. For immunities to all kinds of nastiness, it's hard to beat constructs, so keep golems in mind if you're facing something throwing save-or-lose spells around.
I can't add much to what Dandu said about spells, but don't forget the oft-overlooked antilife shell for hedging out all living creatures. Pick up a liveoak Treant guardian as a speedbump: it's not the greatest combatant, but being plant-based - along with shamblers - it's practically immune to a lot of the scarier powers of high-level undead and the like.
Harking back to the Rod of Greater Extend Spell, an elemental swarm lasts as long as shapechange: elementals are immune to all kinds of stuff, and having 2d4 Large, 1d4 Huge and 1 Greater Elementals along as backing singers is going to slow down most creatures.
If something's corporeal and can't fly, reverse gravity is a good way to spoil its day. Although damn I miss the 2nd Edition version!
Stoneskin is another buff that can be extended for nigh-seven-hour goodness. Freedom of movement, ditto. Hell, so is foresight, although you probably have other things to do with 9th-level spells.
Death ward doesn't last long, but unless you get yourself an item to duplicate the effect you probably don't want to leave home without it memorised.
There's also awaken, of course. However I'm no expert on this and I suspect that without non-Core feats and spells you're not going to be able to get the best out of it. It's a pity you didn't bargain for the Spell Compendium if nothing else: that would have made this exercise easier. Still, provided your son is sticking to core as well you ought to be able to show him a few things. Is using transport via plants or tree stride on your Awakened tree or liveoak ally too weird?
For melee hideousness and just-add-magic speedbumps, keep a few bugs in a jar: a 20th level caster can create 1-3 Colossal vermin with a single 5th-level spell, and those are handy against melee threats. A Colossal Scorpion has a +58 grapple modifier: I'm just saying, is all.
Finally... study. At the very least, learn the different creature types and what they're generally immune or vulnerable to. If your son is following the same restrictions you are, you should be able to gen up on all the CR 15+ monsters in MM I - not counting templated creatures or those with class levels, there are only 16 of them after all.
See if you can talk your son into using one or more of Spell Compendium, Complete Divine, Masters of the Wild or Savage Species. Also find out if he's prepared to let you take monstrous feats from MM I due to spending so much time in wild shape. If he agrees, come back and let us know 
This means you don't have to travel with a dressing room and attendants, which is a good thing.
I admit this doesn't make the point about Druids having Real Ultimate Power - any class with the spell could do the same things - but if your only concern is beating the stuffing out of level-appropriate challenges, Shapechange is hard to top. The only drawback it has is that you can't use Natural Spell to cast in forms that wouldn't normally allow you to throw spells around... but there's nothing stopping you from Wild Shaping before you Shapechange if there are benefits in doing so (a form with mighty escaping powers such as an Air Elemental is good for when your Shapechange gets dispelled).
Stack long-duration buffs on top of what you can pull out of the Monster Manual and you're golden. If you can buff your caster level by 2, you can walk around all damn day as a Solar and not even care: your magical gear will mostly resize to fit your new form so, as per the FAQ, you get to keep it. Your preferred weapons won't resize (although of course there's nothing preventing you from carrying a Large weapon around for just such a contingency), but it's a great form to start a combat in. Or, you know, be a Nightwalker and summon dread wraiths to hang out with you. Then be a different Nightwalker and summon more dread wraiths to hang out with you. They'll hang around for an hour and you can just keep doing it, so why not? (Admittedly, I can see a DM not allowing this for sanity reasons but I can't see why not by RAW)
You don't even need to waste spells on healing: if the fight gets a bit tricky, turn into something that can be ethereal like a Nightmare (or Cauchemar), leave for a few rounds and then turn into something that has "Lay on Hands" as a supernatural ability. Or decent regeneration if you can spare a bit longer. Guardinals are good - they can heal their full normal hit points with their paladinesque healy goodness.
And remember: you can share spells with your animal companion. Including shapechange. OK, it has to remain within 5 feet of you once cast, but two asswhuppin' machines for the price of one is not to be sneezed at.
Or... be a Balor. A raft of immunities and true seeing continuously? Yes please. But you have an animal companion, so be TWO Balors. Strictly speaking, you even get the +1 vorpal longsword, on the grounds that it's listed as a supernatural ability. Pit Fiends are good melee types, too. For immunities to all kinds of nastiness, it's hard to beat constructs, so keep golems in mind if you're facing something throwing save-or-lose spells around.
I can't add much to what Dandu said about spells, but don't forget the oft-overlooked antilife shell for hedging out all living creatures. Pick up a liveoak Treant guardian as a speedbump: it's not the greatest combatant, but being plant-based - along with shamblers - it's practically immune to a lot of the scarier powers of high-level undead and the like.
Harking back to the Rod of Greater Extend Spell, an elemental swarm lasts as long as shapechange: elementals are immune to all kinds of stuff, and having 2d4 Large, 1d4 Huge and 1 Greater Elementals along as backing singers is going to slow down most creatures.
If something's corporeal and can't fly, reverse gravity is a good way to spoil its day. Although damn I miss the 2nd Edition version!
Stoneskin is another buff that can be extended for nigh-seven-hour goodness. Freedom of movement, ditto. Hell, so is foresight, although you probably have other things to do with 9th-level spells.
Death ward doesn't last long, but unless you get yourself an item to duplicate the effect you probably don't want to leave home without it memorised.
There's also awaken, of course. However I'm no expert on this and I suspect that without non-Core feats and spells you're not going to be able to get the best out of it. It's a pity you didn't bargain for the Spell Compendium if nothing else: that would have made this exercise easier. Still, provided your son is sticking to core as well you ought to be able to show him a few things. Is using transport via plants or tree stride on your Awakened tree or liveoak ally too weird?
For melee hideousness and just-add-magic speedbumps, keep a few bugs in a jar: a 20th level caster can create 1-3 Colossal vermin with a single 5th-level spell, and those are handy against melee threats. A Colossal Scorpion has a +58 grapple modifier: I'm just saying, is all.
Finally... study. At the very least, learn the different creature types and what they're generally immune or vulnerable to. If your son is following the same restrictions you are, you should be able to gen up on all the CR 15+ monsters in MM I - not counting templated creatures or those with class levels, there are only 16 of them after all.
See if you can talk your son into using one or more of Spell Compendium, Complete Divine, Masters of the Wild or Savage Species. Also find out if he's prepared to let you take monstrous feats from MM I due to spending so much time in wild shape. If he agrees, come back and let us know
charleskoz
First Post
Thanks for both replies. Yes, Shapechange is pretty cool.
Just one clarification here:
Thanks.
Just one clarification here:
What I meant by "Is it worth getting say dragonhide armor with the +3 bonus cost that makes it keep bonuses when you go into wild shape?" was dragonhide armor with the "Wild" modifier (+3 bonus cost). Does that still work?
Thanks.
Last edited:
Jack Simth
First Post
The answer doesn't change. See, Bracers of Armor +8 and a Monk's Belt (on a Wildshaped Druid) will give you better AC than +5 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate, will apply to Incorporeal Touch attacks, and is only marginally more expensive (77k vs. 67k) - however, the fullplate usually costs you a feat (Heavy Armor Proficiency, although technically it's not required). Well, assuming you've got a good Wisdom score for the level, anyway. If you don't want to de-equip, Wildshape, and re-equip as you think it's cheese, then yes, it's worthwhile to get +5 Wild Dragonhide Full Plate.Thanks for both replies. Yes, Shapechange is pretty cool.
Just one clarification here:
What I meant by "Is it worth getting say dragonhide armor with the +3 bonus cost that makes it keep bonuses when you go into wild shape?" was dragonhide armor with the "Wild" modifier (+3 bonus cost). Does that still work?
Now, I suppose if you go with +5 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate and a +5 Wild Heavy Shield, you could do a little better, depending on your Wisdom and whether or not you can convince the DM that "preserves his armor bonus" also applies to Shield bonuses (no, seriously - a Wild shield doesn't work, exactly as written).
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