Help me nail down this 'take 10, take 20' nonsense

[knifespeaks]

Um...put any other number in place of that 20 and it says the exact same thing. Does that not strike you as a 'big gaping hole'?

Nope!

You aren't taking another number - you are taking 20. If rolling a 20 still indicates a failure, then taking 20 serves no purpose. However, if rolling a 20 would indicate success - then you succeed in finding nothing. The player will then know there was nothing to find - hence my issue with taking 20 in that circumstance since it has given an unequivocal, definite answer.

Seems crystal clear to me I don't believe players should ever know whether there was/wasn't something to find - they merely know they did/didn't find anything.

 

[Scion]

Strangely it doesnt give any more or less information than rolling the die. You found something or you did not.

One way we get to save time in the real world by simplifying things in such a way as would have happened anyway by just saying, 'I have the time, I will be careful' which is represented by taking a 20. Simple, easy, fast, and no need to frustrate the players for no reason (which is what I see making the players keep rolling over and over again instead of useing a simple mechanic).

If it cannot be found by someone of your skill then that does not mean it isnt there, simply that you cannot find it. This information is no different than if someone had rolled for a time.

So, since the 'only' difference that I see is how much you want to frustrate your players I think going by the simple and easy method presented by the books is the best.

 

[The Other Librarian]

20 does not always mean success. if the dc is 35 , my skill is +10 and I take 20 then my result is 30, insufficient and not an automatic success. The is still something there to find. The most the player can assume is that he can't find it, at least not under these circumstances. Not the same thing at all.

 

[knifespeaks]

20 does not always mean success. if the dc is 35 , my skill is +10 and I take 20 then my result is 30, insufficient and not an automatic success. The is still something there to find. The most the player can assume is that he can't find it, at least not under these circumstances. Not the same thing at all.

/sigh.

If the dc is so high that even with a pefect roll the goal is unachievable, then why have the mechanic of take 20 at all? I quote:

"Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding". (PHB, page 65)

Success is therefore ASSURED if you get 20, no? Other bonuses notwithstanding, the 'rule' clearly states that a 20 = success.

 

[Scion]

Success is therefore ASSURED if you get 20, no?

Nope, 20 in a skill is not auto success. It may very well be that your best is not good enough.

 

[knifespeaks]

Which isn't the same as taking 20.

The concept of taking 20 only applies to a situation where rolling a 20 is sufficient to succeed - showing examples where a 20 isn't enough for success isn't applicable to the rule for taking 20.

This is because it is defined as a check without a roll - ie, that success is possible with sufficient TIME rather than skill.

So, the fact remains - a take 20 is the same as saying 'roll a 20, success is guaranteed'.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Which isn't the same as taking 20.

The concept of taking 20 only applies to a situation where rolling a 20 is sufficient to succeed - showing examples where a 20 isn't enough for success isn't applicable to the rule for taking 20.

This is because it is defined as a check without a roll - ie, that success is possible with sufficient TIME rather than skill.

So, the fact remains - a take 20 is the same as saying 'roll a 20, success is guaranteed'.

I think you're missing the whole point of why taking 20 exists. Its not because success is guaranteed. Its there so you don't keep rolling again and again and again until the player has decided they're willing to risk going on. Metagame HAPPENS in so many aspects of the game. Its something you learn to deal with, and good players can take this situation:

"I take 20 on the search"

"You find nothing"

And STILL come out of it worried, even thinking, "I did my best, but I've still got a bad feeling about this."

Really, I've described rooms before and just mentioned a statue. There was NOTHING about that statue, but the PCs spent so long inspecting it and such because they swore it was something even AFTER they took 20 and found nothing.

 

[Scion]

'getting it right' in this case does not come even close to 'auto success', it is merely doing the best you can do.

If you choose to read too much into something and then claim it is a bad mechanic well.. that doesnt mean the mechanic is bad. They are playing a bit loose with the wording here and there, but the intent, and how the mechanic works, is very clear from the first paragraph. No need to make it do more than it does.

Take 20 is not autosucces, it is trying until you get a 20 and to save time they simply make it take twenty times as long and give you that roll.

SRD:
Taking 20:When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Interestingly enough, even though I run games where I hide rolls like Search, Spot, etc from the players...that portion of the SRD almost hints that players are rolling those in the open

 

[knifespeaks]

I don't like saving time - players play the game, I adjudicate. It isn't for me to make things easy for them, and rules like this make it easy.

If they wish to search 100 times, then roll 100 dice. Taking 20 is a soft option - as a mechanic, it presents too many opportunities for abuse. Besides which, search rolls should never be done by a player imho.

This is an RPG - that means, as a DM, the microcosm is as important, if not more so, than the macrocosm.

Where are your spell components stored? How many pinches of sand do you have? What hand is your character? How much food do you have left? How are you carrying all your gear? How are you lighting the torch with your hands full?

Magic items must be identified, wands don't usually have the command word carved onto them, armour rusts or goes out of shape in the rain, books get wet, familiars are randomly called, bows aren't carried for days already strung, some weapons are better at piercing armour than others....and you don't take 20 on searches.

You want everything spoonfed to you, where it's all easy and simple, magic items can be bought for 50k gold and so on? Then don't sit at my table. Treasure isn't always easy to carry, xp ain't handed out in clumps of 500 and going up a level doesn't make a 'ding'.