Help me nail down this 'take 10, take 20' nonsense

[nimisgod]

AFAIK, a natural 20 on a skill roll is not an automatic success. Likewise, a natural 1 on a skill roll is not an automatic failure. Thus, take 20 does not "assure success" if the PC has no chance to succeed in the first place (a DC30 secret door for most 1st level PCs , for example)

 

[Hypersmurf]

I just thought it might be worth pointing out that if the DC is high enough, Taking 20 might not assure success.

You know, just in case it somehow got overlooked

-Hyp.

 

[shilsen]

I just thought it might be worth pointing out that if the DC is high enough, Taking 20 might not assure success.

You know, just in case it somehow got overlooked

-Hyp.

Ooh - over two hours late, Hyp (see nimisgod's post just above yours)! You're losing your touch

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Ooh - over two hours late, Hyp (see nimisgod's post just above yours)! You're losing your touch

...also see the many other posts that said the same thing.

 

[dcollins]

I just thought it might be worth pointing out that if the DC is high enough, Taking 20 might not assure success.

You know, just in case it somehow got overlooked

Wait, Hyp, you may have missed something in the rules that is very key to a proper interpretation of this issue. Note this in the PHB, under "Skill Checks":

A natural 20 is not an automatic success, and a natural 1 is not an automatic failure (as is the case in the combat rules).

So in truth, you could roll a natural 20 and still not succeed at the skill check (assuming the DC was high enough).

 

[nimisgod]

So in truth, you could roll a natural 20 and still not succeed at the skill check (assuming the DC was high enough).

Yep. If, for example, I was a rogue with a +4 total skill modifier for search and I took 20, I still wouldn't be able to find the DC 30 secret door. When I come back to the room and I'm more experienced and better equipped, I probably could do so.

If players keep taking 20 all the time and it's giving you grief, just give them a time factor to worry about (an impeding evil ritual or someone is waiting for them to come back, etc).

 

[Hypersmurf]

So in truth, you could roll a natural 20 and still not succeed at the skill check (assuming the DC was high enough).

Waaa-ait, wait. So you're telling me that even though a natural 20 is an automatic success for attack rolls and saves, that if I'm trying to Search for a trap, say, then even if I roll a natural 20, I might not find it?

Assuming the DC is high enough?

Man. They should have put that in the rules.

-Hyp.

 

[Liam Forbes]

Right, I know that. The question is, why didn't I remember that when I wrote that ??? DOH!

Anyway, the point still stands, you are assumed to have rolled every number between 1 and 20. Long story short, nobody does it unless they are willing to take a lot of failures.
In my example I said it's always 19, but it's not (my bad). It's never come up, because none of my players have been dumb enough to take 20 on a disable device check so far.

Also everyone, remember that search checks to find traps don't set them off. You are checking for a trap in such a way as you don't run the risk of setting it off (that's why you can make a search check from 10' away IIRC).

You know those pictures with all the squiggly lines, and if you cross your eyes just right a picture jumps out in 3D for you? Taking 20 is like that, you just stare at the wall until you notice the faint little crack that runs around the secret door (or you notice the little discoloration from the fire mechanism in the wall, Etc.)

With disable device checks, on the other hand, failure means you set it off. Take 20 and it's Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom … … Got it !

-Tatsu

All the traps in your world set off fireballs, and have unlimited charges.

What I'm saying is it depends on the trap. If the trap is a poisoned dart that you nick if you don't bypass it. Yes you nick your finger but the poison is no longer there.

 

[Timeboxer]

I don't like saving time - players play the game, I adjudicate. It isn't for me to make things easy for them, and rules like this make it easy.

If they wish to search 100 times, then roll 100 dice. Taking 20 is a soft option - as a mechanic, it presents too many opportunities for abuse. Besides which, search rolls should never be done by a player imho.

...I think if I ever play in one of your games, I'll just simulate Take 20 by saying, "I Search 20 times. You do the math."

 

[knifespeaks]

Ahh, the hilarity of the above posters is truly awe-inspiring.

Sadly, they forgot to read an earlier post of mine, wherein I discounted, for purposes of this discussion, all those instances where the DC is sufficient to prevent success with a 20. Hope that makes you all feel good

The issue I have with take 20 is this:

It is predicated on a situation wherein the ONLY ROLL that will succeed, with all modifiers added in, is a 20. It can be a search check at +4 vs DC 24 if you wish to give an example. Ok? I'll say it again - it's a situation where there is a chance, a 1 in 20 chance, for success.

Therefore, such a situation is trivialised if the players can take 20. That's it. The end. Fini.