Help me nail down this 'take 10, take 20' nonsense

[Kecia Tavernier]

Never mind

 

[Hypersmurf]

Nay Hyp, take 0 is about my limit

But Take 19 means that if they have a Search bonus of 4, and there's something of DC 24, then Take 19 only gives them 23. So if they take the time to roll the dice ten thousand times, not knowing if they're ever rolling a 20, they can't be certain that rolling it another then thousand times won't make a difference.

And isn't that what your problem with Take 20 was?

As far as climbing rigging is concerned, isn't it possible for a rope to break?

That wouldn't be reflected by the Climb DC, though. That's a separate possibility.

A foot to be caught and a character slip?

If they're rushing, certainly. But if they're not in a hurry? I don't see why...

A 1% is more in order in that specific example, although it could be an old rope....

If the condition of the rope makes the actual Climb more difficult, that would be reflected in a higher DC. If it went up to 15 instead of 10, the average commoner wouldn't be able to simply Take 10; he'd have to take his chances and roll, and there's your chance of failure.

If the condition of the rope doesn't actually change how hard it is to climb, but there's a chance it could break, that's completely separate. The commoner Takes 10, having no trouble in actually making his way up the rigging... and then you roll the break chance. If the rope breaks, it doesn't matter what his Climb skill is... when there's nothing to climb, you're in trouble no matter what.

-Hyp.

 

[Scion]

Besides, without take 10 then with all of the climbing that goes on while on a ship then you would literally be killing a commoner at least every single day from falling. From what I hear about sailing that isnt the case. In fact, people rarely if ever slipped except possibly in incredibly adverse conditions (higher dc).

Something that you would expect someone being not rushed to never fail except one in a million (which is far outside of the game to bring into play), but could fail if rushed sounds like a 'perfect' reason to have take 10. Take 20 falls under the same case. If you could do the best job you could given time why bother to roll? simply have an easy mechanich which simulates it.

 

[knifespeaks]

Your example re: take 19 is valid only insofar as the bonus was +4 - my problem is with the specific ruling that 'taking time = eventual success'. The taking 10/20 rule is what the game mechanics equate to that statement.

As far as the example we are using, how about this?

The DC to climb the rope is 21. This is becaue it is an old rope, rotten and worn in some areas. Now, adding the same mechanic for saves and attack rolls, if you get a 20, fine - success! If you get a 1 - bad - failure! Otherwise, add your climb skill mod to the die roll.

Now, if a character says - "I am going to go slowly, and check every foot/hand hold before placing my weight on it", then I can simply add a modifier to the roll (just like a circumstance bonus). This can even be a +19 circumstance bonus. But there is still a CHANCE (represented by a 1 on the die) that the character, despite taking all precautions, sadly overlooked something and fell/slipped/whatever.

Likewise, by allowing auto success on a 20, it gives the commoner the CHANCE to succeed on the heroic stage as well.

This isn't about penalising the characters - it is about returning the possibility of failure to even the exceptionally skilled. Likewise, it allows the completely unskilled to extract success from the jaws of failure.

 

[knifespeaks]

Besides, without take 10 then with all of the climbing that goes on while on a ship then you would literally be killing a commoner at least every single day from falling. From what I hear about sailing that isnt the case. In fact, people rarely if ever slipped except possibly in incredibly adverse conditions (higher dc).

Something that you would expect someone being not rushed to never fail except one in a million (which is far outside of the game to bring into play), but could fail if rushed sounds like a 'perfect' reason to have take 10. Take 20 falls under the same case. If you could do the best job you could given time why bother to roll? simply have an easy mechanich which simulates it.

In response to that, the sailors had exceptionally high climb skills! And failure doesn't necessarily mean falling to one's death - it could simply mean a short delay in ascending the rope....

 

[Saeviomagy]

Lol, I should never have posted on this thread

Not without some well-thought-out reasoning behind your arguements, certainly.

As far as climbing rigging is concerned, isn't it possible for a rope to break? A foot to be caught and a character slip? ... ... the rope COULD BE rotten and you MIGHT slip. A 1% is more in order in that specific example, although it could be an old rope....

Isn't that something the DM decides beforehand? Especially given that spot checks would be in order to notice this fact before the climbing ever begins.

I can see a lot of PC's in your game getting bored while you roll 100 search checks...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Your example re: take 19 is valid only insofar as the bonus was +4 - my problem is with the specific ruling that 'taking time = eventual success'. The taking 10/20 rule is what the game mechanics equate to that statement.

But that's true even without the Take 20 rule! If you roll the die enough times, a 20 will come up eventually! Taking time = eventual 20!

This can even be a +19 circumstance bonus. But there is still a CHANCE (represented by a 1 on the die) that the character, despite taking all precautions, sadly overlooked something and fell/slipped/whatever.

Which means that one out of every twenty times the incredibly agile barbarian with Skill Focus: Jump hops over the 5' wide chasm, he falls eight hundred feet to the ground below.

It's a DC 5 Jump. He gets a +4 just for having a 40' move, let alone ranks in Jump, Str bonus, etc, etc, etc...!

-Hyp.

 

[knifespeaks]

But that's true even without the Take 20 rule! If you roll the die enough times, a 20 will come up eventually! Taking time = eventual 20!



Which means that one out of every twenty times the incredibly agile sailor with Skill Focus: Climb hops out of the crow's nest, he falls eighty feet to the deck below.

-Hyp.

But 'rolling enough times' is different to taking 20. Taking 20 argues that you will get 19 failures for one succes. As we all know, dice don't work like that.

And likewise the sailor doesn't fall one in twenty. He could go all his life and never fail a skill roll

I have said before, I am happy to agree to disagree on this point. If it works for you all, fine. But for me, I prefer the element of uncertainty - humans make mistakes, but apparently not if we can take 20

 

[Scion]

In response to that, the sailors had exceptionally high climb skills! And failure doesn't necessarily mean falling to one's death - it could simply mean a short delay in ascending the rope....

So the only people on the ships are those who have been climbing rigging for years? They never had new people? There are never people below level 10 on the ship and everyone always maxes out climb?

Doesnt seem right, especially going by the core where most people are 'very' low level. Without take 10 it is possible that someone will 'never' make it up that rope, seems silly

 

[knifespeaks]

LOL Hyp @ the barbarian

But this is exactly the point at issue - you go 800' up and look at HOW FAR 5' across is - the presence of certain death if you fail will make 5' seem alot further....c'mon, thats the whole point of heroic fantasy, right there! A hero doesn't see the drop - he just sees the 5' jump, which is easy!