Help me out. PoL. Why don't small towns get overrun?

A little bit back someone mentioned cavemen were in a PoL setting while living with dinosaurs. And if cavemen had actually lived with dinosaurs things would have been strange because there was a reason there weren't a large number of mammals around. Natural selection means if there's a whole bunch of high power monsters around (above CR 8 or so) then human civilization can't really exist in a PoL setting because it needs big armies or plenty of high powered adventurers to survive. And on roughly the same track, the PoL setting assumes that there aren't evil empires springing up anywhere, you can certainly have one as the focus of your campaign, but it isn't normal, evil is fractured all about at least as much as the good races are.

So how does a smallish town survive in this world? For a number of reasons.

The first is that the world is a big place. This is hard to grasp for anybody that grew up where a car is the primary form of locomotion like pretty much all of us did. I mean I hear fifteen miles and I think right next door. But that's about five hours away on foot. So human settlements in general aren't going to be right next door to monsters, at least not very many.

The second is that monsters aren't going to attack towns very often. We'll look at the humanoid tribes of monsters first. We imagine that orcs, gnolls, goblins, kobolds generally exist as hunter-gatherer groups and not in any agrarian groups (not that there's any reason not to have them do so, the races are intelligent and perfectly capable of picking it up from humans). So why don't the raid the human town? The better question is, why would they? Remember that evil does not mean 'goes out of its way to inflict pain on others', evil means that it doesn't have any moral objection to inflicting pains on others. Why should the orcs raid the human village? What do they want from it? Non-mobile Hunter-gatherer groups have population limits, you aren't going to have a group of a hundred orcs (yielding maybe 35 warriors) just living off the land in a normal scenario. In general these groups simply don't have the people to throw away waging war against human groups. A group of orcs rushing twelve humans with bows hiding behind a simple wall is going to take heavy casualties and might just get wiped out. And there's simply no reason to attack, wiping out the humans only serves a purpose if wiping them out makes life easier for you. If it does there will probably be conflict, but we might as well ask why the humans don't go and wipe out the monsters themselves. Groups large enough to not be hurt by the members they would bleed off from conflicts with local groups simply don't generally exist in the PoL campaign. There isn't a horde of a thousand orcs (with roughly 400 warriors) moving around the countryside, or if there is then it's balanced by a human force roughly capable of meeting it in battle.

The second group of monsters is the ones that the townspeople can't even touch. Dragons, beholders, and other similar high CR creatures. The first question to ask of course is, why does the creature care about the human town? Towns don't have material wealth, they aren't a sustainable source of food if you're eating the humans (A dragon who demands that the humans raise cattle in order to have regular meals). Again, evil doesn't mean going out of your way to hurt people, it just means you don't have any moral objection to hurting people. Human towns are really only worth it to destroy if you need human sacrifices or something in a similar vein, in which case, say good bye to the town.

But if the big bad does come a knocking and just feels like destroying something then there's a simple solution. Running away very fast. I mean if the things decides to hunt you all down then you're dead but chances are it'll get bored and wander away after killing a few people and knocking some buildings down. Of course this is the same problem faced by every single orc, gnoll, goblin or kobold village as well, evil isn't nice to other evil.

So humans surviving makes as much sense as any other group surviving. The CR .5-1 creatures are checked by other CR .5-1 creatures, the CR 5-10 creatures are a lot rarer and checked by other CR 5-10 creatures, and as CR goes up the monsters get rarer and rarer although they'll still be checked by other creatures of the same CR.
 

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Can I just re-state here that humanoid monsters do not need to be stupid to be defeatable by normal humans, they just need to be less civilised (possibly semi-nomadic), have limited technology of their own and then they will be restricted to groups of around 5-10 adults because larger communities are impossible via this way of life.

This is not to say they could not be united into a huge mass by someone powerful, just that this is not their default way of life. Such large armies would then become transitory affairs that fall apart very quickly because of lack of food, supplies and organisation. I see nothing about this scernario that should make anyone who plays D&D uncomfortable.

The only time you would see settlements populated by humanoid monsters is when there is some great will bending them to it and preventing the sort of in-fighting that usually makes it impossible for these creatures to create a civilised society. Or else they have alot of slaves to do the work for them.

I understand that some people want them to be like humans; call me old fashioned, but I like my monsters as sub-human and rather nasty. Otherwise I am not too comfortable with the idea of killing them (as someone else has already said).
 


Cavemen and Dinosaurs NEVER co-existed. The only mammals around at the time of the Dinosaurs were egg stealing animals rather like rodents. The time when we evolved is separated from the time of the great Dinosaurs by more than a hundred million years! If they had not died out, mammals would have never got beyond the stage of rats.

Could people please realise that alot of their "knowledge" is actually nonsense that comes from films distorting reality for artistic reasons.

Similarly with the "Dark Ages"; they were NOTHING of the sort. In Ireland, art, literature and science all flourished. The Dark Ages is a MYTH invented by Victorian archeologists who loved the Romans too much and didn't know enough about antiquity. The problem was, we have few written records of the time and the buildings etc don't survive well because most were made of wood but 5th-8th century was anything but Dark and it certainly wasn't that violent.

Sorry to rant but it does sadden me that people learn their "history" "biology" and "anthropology" from movies instead of actually finding out for themselves from real trusted sources. You have to understand that most of what passes for information in this age is MISINFORMATION.
 

Villages have to be well defended, pay ransom, or off the beaten path to survive long in a PoL campaign.
Derren said:
Apparently better then you. In a fight Bugbear vs. Human my money is on the Bugbear.
Given that the human is 1st level and a commoner or NPC class, I'd say the same in 3e. In fact, due to 3e's Diablo design, Hong's avatar could leave a half dozen dead 1st level commoners in its wake.
 
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Ydars said:
Cavemen and Dinosaurs NEVER co-existed. The only mammals around at the time of the Dinosaurs were egg stealing animals rather like rodents. The time when we evolved is separated from the time of the great Dinosaurs by more than a hundred million years! If they had not died out, mammals would have never got beyond the stage of rats.

Could people please realise that alot of their "knowledge" is actually nonsense that comes from films distorting reality for artistic reasons.
I'm sorry but I simply won't believe that the Flintstones lied to me. Next you'll tell me that the Triceratops didn't even eat people. ;)
 

Ydars said:
Cavemen and Dinosaurs NEVER co-existed. The only mammals around at the time of the Dinosaurs were egg stealing animals rather like rodents. The time when we evolved is separated from the time of the great Dinosaurs by more than a hundred million years! If they had not died out, mammals would have never got beyond the stage of rats.

I was about to post a similar complaint, and then I re-read the dinosaur post and decided that it was tongue-in-cheek. Mostly because of the bit about people flying on pterodactyls.
 

Ydars said:
Cavemen and Dinosaurs NEVER co-existed. The only mammals around at the time of the Dinosaurs were egg stealing animals rather like rodents. The time when we evolved is separated from the time of the great Dinosaurs by more than a hundred million years! If they had not died out, mammals would have never got beyond the stage of rats.

You are certainly correct on the human/dinosaur coexistence front, but your timeframe is off just a little bit. The dinosaurs only died out about 65 million years ago, so it certainly didn't take 100 million years for us to evolve, else we would not be here yet.

Similarly with the "Dark Ages"; they were NOTHING of the sort. In Ireland, art, literature and science all flourished. The Dark Ages is a MYTH invented by Victorian archeologists who loved the Romans too much and didn't know enough about antiquity. The problem was, we have few written records of the time and the buildings etc don't survive well because most were made of wood but 5th-8th century was anything but Dark and it certainly wasn't that violent.

I have heard much the same and am interested in learning more. Though most recently I watched a History Channel documentary that seemed to indicate life was indeed pretty crappy for those living in the first few generations after Roman civilization and organization largely ceased. I don't put forward the History Channel as gospel, but I suspect that such a period of history is the sort of thing we could look at to get an idea of real-life "PoL." It seems likely, as you say, that it was not nearly as bad as some are insisting the D&D PoL would have to be.


Deadstop
 

I like the PoL/PoD version. The 'good' guys are kings/retired heroes surrounded by circles of peons. The really bad guys are surrounded by circles of kobolds/goblins/orcs, etc. These circles are just starting to overlap after the cataclysm, as each side expands, pushing the rings out.
 


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