Help me set a DC for jumping on a Centaur during combat

[scalylizard]

I was running a game tonight where Lvl 3 PCs (one rogue, one fighter and one ranger) had to ambush a certain renegade centaur. Long story short, in the heat of the battle group's rogue was facing the centaur, suddenly the rogue decided to jump on the centaur's back and slash his throat.

Now, rogue's strength bonus was +1 and he has two daggers in his hands, he also has the two weapon fighting. I set the DC of this acrobatics at DC20, and allowed him to use his tumble modifier. Rogue beat the DC by rolling 18+5=23 so he jumped on the centaur.

Next, I made opposing rolls where centaur tried to throw him off his back

centaur rolled d20+DEX+Base Attack Bonus
rogue rolled d20+DEX+Base Attack Bonus

Centaur won the contest and threw the rogue off his back. If the centaur had lost, I was going to allow rogue to auto hit with a sneak attack.


How would you run this encounter? My group has wild imagination (which is great) they always come up with such acrobatic stuff, and I don't want to make things either too easy or too difficult for them. If you encountered similar stunts in your games I would appreciate some advice.
Thanks!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, the simplest way to handle it without needing to make up rulinfs on the fly would be to not treat it as acrobatics at all -- say it's a Bluff check to Feint in combat. If the Rogue succeeds, he's able to make the Centaur react to his fake and lunge in the desired direction, allowing him to leap up onto the Centaur to set up the sneak attack (the centaur losing his dex to AC against the attack because it was a feint).

Have you heard of Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel? They're like special skill uses you can do once/encounter. There is one called Acrobatic Backstab that lets the PC try to tumble through the foe's square (typically DC 25 and done as part of a move action). If he succeeds, his next attack leaves the foe flatfooted. That could also be re-flavored to represent that.

If you don't have Complete Scoundrel, or if you do and want more options, you could think up your own skill tricks. Each costs 2 skill points to learn, requires X ranks in the relevant skill(s), and gives you some stunt or ability.

 

[Celebrim]

I was running a game tonight where Lvl 3 PCs (one rogue, one fighter and one ranger) had to ambush a certain renegade centaur. Long story short, in the heat of the battle group's rogue was facing the centaur, suddenly the rogue decided to jump on the centaur's back and slash his throat.

To begin with, in my campaign is this a 'clinch manuever', it has extensive rules for handling this very sitaution. When I get home tonight, I'll post them.

Now, rogue's strength bonus was +1 and he has two daggers in his hands, he also has the two weapon fighting. I set the DC of this acrobatics at DC20, and allowed him to use his tumble modifier. Rogue beat the DC by rolling 18+5=23 so he jumped on the centaur.

In my opinion, this is not an acrobatics check. A case can be made for using jump, climb, or ride to mount a centaur against its wishes, but I don't see a strong case for tumble.

DC in my opinion each skill check is opposed

The other issue is that in my campaign a clinch, like a grapple, draws an attack of oppurtunity.

Next, I made opposing rolls where centaur tried to throw him off his back

centaur rolled d20+DEX+Base Attack Bonus
rogue rolled d20+DEX+Base Attack Bonus

Centaur won the contest and threw the rogue off his back. If the centaur had lost, I was going to allow rogue to auto hit with a sneak attack.

That's pretty close to what happens in a successful clinch. The attacker then has several options in a clinch, one of which is to win an opposed check and then attack the vitals which would allow a rogue to make a sneak attack. However, it would not be an automatic hit. Instead, the target of the clinch is treated as flat-footed with respect to that attack (hense the reason sneak attack works).

The centaur's has alot of potential moves in this situation, one of which is to just throw the PC by winning an opposed check. Another is that when you are clinched you forfiet the AoO when someone makes a grapple attack on you, so the centaur can break the clinch simply by making a successful grapple (turning the table's on the attacker). A third is that the centuar can make a trashing attack, which in this case means the centaur drops and rolls on top of the rogue doing trample damage.

 

[scalylizard]

All of them excellent ideas, thanks Celebrim and StreamofSky! While I was ruling I had the feeling that I wasn't doing it right, but didn't want to break the combat to look up some rules.

To begin with, in my campaign is this a 'clinch manuever', it has extensive rules for handling this very sitaution. When I get home tonight, I'll post them.
......
The centaur's has alot of potential moves in this situation, one of which is to just throw the PC by winning an opposed check. Another is that when you are clinched you forfiet the AoO when someone makes a grapple attack on you, so the centaur can break the clinch simply by making a successful grapple (turning the table's on the attacker). A third is that the centuar can make a trashing attack, which in this case means the centaur drops and rolls on top of the rogue doing trample damage.

That is a really nice way of handling this..I never thought of thrashing attack, very good idea! Looking forward to reading more of your rules, (by the way how do you run a situation with thrashing attack?)

Have you heard of Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel? They're like special skill uses you can do once/encounter. There is one called Acrobatic Backstab that lets the PC try to tumble through the foe's square (typically DC 25 and done as part of a move action). If he succeeds, his next attack leaves the foe flatfooted. That could also be re-flavored to represent that.

thanks Stream, I think I have the Complete Scoundrel now that you mentioned it I vaguely remember reading this (many years ago) I'll definitely have to check. This also seems to fit our situation perfectly!

 

[Celebrim]

Clinch Manuever

CLINCH
Clinching is special manuever which brings you inside the guard of larger creature or opponent using a larger weapon. From there, you try to shelter from your opponent’s attacks using your opponent’s greater reach against them and even treating your foes own body as cover. You can also attempt to attack your foe at such close range that they are unable to defend themselves.

In order to clinch, the opponent must be either of a larger size class than you, or wielding at least one weapon which is a larger size class than at least one of your weapons. You can't clinch against an opponent more than one size class smaller than you under any circumstances. You can’t clinch a creature with no meaningful anatomy – such as an ooze or swarm. To clinch, you must draw an Attack of Oppurtunity and then make a successful opposed clinch check.

Clinch Checks
Repeatedly in a clinch, you need to make opposed clinch maneuver checks against an opponent. Your bonus on a clinch manuever check is: Base attack bonus + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier
Special Size Modifier: The special size modifier for a clinch check is as follows: Colossal -16, Gargantuan -12, Huge -8, Large -4, Medium +0, Small +4, Tiny +8, Diminutive +12, Fine +16. Use this number in place of the normal size modifier you use when making an attack roll. This size modifier is opposite that of the grappling modifier.
Clinch Checks and Skill Usage: If you are trained in balance, you can substitute your balance check for your BAB in a clinch check. If you are at least two size classes smaller than your foe and you are trained in climb or have a racial climb speed, you can use your climb check instead. Other skills may be used at the DM's discrestion if the circumstances warrant it, such as swim when fighting in water or ride when clinching a creature which can normally be mounted.

Effects of a Clinch: When you clinch, your opponent can move, but they must succeed in an opposed clinch maneuver check to avoid bringing you along with them (breaking the clinch). Further more, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to your AC with respect to their attacks and a +2 circumstance bonus to hit. If you are smaller than your opponent, you get an additional +2 dodge bonus per difference in size classes. Note that unlike grappling, clinching an opponent in and of itself imposes no condition on them. They can still act normally. Likewise, while clinched with your opponent you can attack normally.

The downside of a clinch is you give up your attack of opportunity if your opponent attempts to grapple you, which in many cases they will very likely want to do if they can. Once you are grappled, the clinch is broken.

On later turns, provided your opponent has not found a way to break the clinch, as a move equivalent action you may make an opposed clinch check and if successful, your opponent is considered flatfooted with respect to your attacks that round. Conceptually, you get so close to a vital region that your opponent is unable to defend it.

Breaking the Clinch: If you initiated the Clinch, you may break the clinch…
Voluntarily: At any time during your turn or at any time when the target of your clinch moves, you may break a clinch you initiated.
Moving Away: If you move so that you are no longer adjacent to the target of your clinch, the clinch is automatically broken.

If you are the target of a Clinch, you may break the clinch…
By Moving Away: If you move away from a creature that is clinching you, it has the option of voluntararily releasing the clinch or moving with you. If it wishes to continue the clinch by moving with you, it must win an opposed clinch check. If you have a faster speed than clinching creature, you gain a +4 bonus when attempting to break a clinch in this manner. If you are also using a movement mode that the clinching creature does not naturally have, you gain an additional +4 bonus (for a total of +8).
By Deliberate Effort: At the beginning of your turn, you can attempt to break the clinch of any one opponent currently clinching you. This does not require an action. If you beat the opponent in an opposed clinch check, you have broken the clinch.
By Grappling: If you succeed in a grappling attack versus a creature that has clinched you, you break the clinch.
By Trashing: As a full round action, you flail wildly in an attempt to dislodge your attackers. Each clinching opponent must make a DC 15 Reflex save. If they fail, they take damage as from one of your unarmed attacks, and the clinch is broken. Creatures with a natural trample or crush attack form may subsitute the damage of their trample or crush attack for their unarmed attack.

Breaking the Clinch and the Environment: If you have clinched an airborne flying creature, when the clinch is broken you must either fly or you are falling. If you have clinched a creature that is swimming, when the clinch is broken you must either swim or sink.

Clinch and Two-Weapon Fighting: When a character is armed with two weapons of different sizes, it presents additional complexities. You may still clinch if the foe is wielding at least one weapon which is a larger size class than at least one of your weapons, but clinching in this case is not completely effective. If you successfully clinch, you may not attack with a weapon which is larger than the largest weapon your opponent is wielding. The bonus to attack you receive from clinching only applies to weapons you have that are smaller than the smallest weapon your opponent is wielding. Finally, the bonus to AC you receive from clinching only applies to attacks by the opponent from weapons larger than the smallest weapon you are wielding. Your opponent may still attack without penalty with any weapon of the same size or smaller than your smallest weapon.

Mutually Clinched: It is possible for two creatures using a two-weapon fighting stance to clinch each other. When this occurs, neither may voluntarily break the clinch unless both voluntarily break the clinch.

 

[Celebrim]

(by the way how do you run a situation with thrashing attack?)

While the rules are concrete, the fluff used to describe what the rules indicate may be whatever is appropriate for the situation.

Clinching simply means, getting inside the guard of the opponent, so as to use his own body as cover and protection from his attacks, while simulataneously attacking from such a close distance that it is difficult to defend. The clinch rules apply to any situation like that. Thus, clinching may be described as any of the following as circumstances warrant:

* Two fencers locking swords, and proceding to attack each other with their main gauches.
* A pair of sows tossing each other to stay away from the others tusks.
* A dwarf charing in and fighting nimbly beneath the feet of a frost giant while it flails wildly at the ground.
* A halfling clamoring up an ogre to stab him in the chest.
* A puglist clinching another boxer and then launching short swift uppercuts into his belly and jaw.
* An elf pulling off a stunt where he runs up the chain of giant trolls flail, then balances on his back to fire arrows into his skull.
* A warrior mounting a griffin and then hacking at his wings.
* A swarm of rats covering character by scrambling up his legs.
* A stirge landing nimbly on a characters back in order to drink blood.

Basically, any time a smaller creature grapples a larger creature without the intention to control its movement, it's a clinch.

Trashing is subject to the same sort of creative interpretation. It might mean wildly slapping at spiders that have crawled up your legs. It might mean a fallen giant pounding the earth wildly with its legs and arms like an overgrown toddler having a tantrum. Or, in the case of the Centaur I think the most effective dramatic description is that it 'stops, drops, and rolls'. The description is important only in that it is cinematic. So long as the description provides no advantage not described in the rules, feel free to be creative.

 

[scalylizard]

Celebrim, very nice rules!! Thanks for posting. I'll add clinching to the repertoire of actions available during combat. Seems like the smaller creatures or lighter weapon wielding characters have the advantage.

I have two question about the mechanics:
1-Can the character starting the clinch get to clinch and attack in the same round? Does clinching count as a standard attack, movement, or full round action?

2-Regarding "breaking the clinch by movement" option, does a five foot step count as movement?

Thanks!

 

[Celebrim]

Celebrim, very nice rules!! Thanks for posting. I'll add clinching to the repertoire of actions available during combat. Seems like the smaller creatures or lighter weapon wielding characters have the advantage.

Sometimes. But lighter weapons do less damage, and reach is still a powerful benefit. To achieve a clinch, you must first risk an attack from the longer weapon getting there.

But yes, part of this is to simulate why soldiers often used shorter, wieldier swords rather than longer ones, and to make a skilled knife fighter appropriately dangerous in close quarters.

I should say that this does increase the advantage of being really small beyond even the big advantage it provides in the core rules. If you don't make offsetting changes to the rules to make being small a real drawback, it could be mildly abusable.

Adopting clinch also has the outcome of making grappling (to resist a clinch) more common, so be prepared for that.

1-Can the character starting the clinch get to clinch and attack in the same round? Does clinching count as a standard attack, movement, or full round action?

Clinching is a free action - as is breaking a clinch for that matter. Basically, you can do it any time you are adjacent to someone and not immobile. The entire action is doing something a little less than a 5' step,

2-Regarding "breaking the clinch by movement" option, does a five foot step count as movement?

If it moves you such that you would be no longer adjacent to the person clinching you, yes, it is. You break the clinch by trying to move away. The person clinching you tries to move with you and/or hang on (as is appropriate to the situation).