Help me swing my players away from clerics

[Arnwyn]

In short, I need to give an incentive for 3/4 of the players to NOT be a cleric for once.

First you say this. Okay, cool. But then...

The party always makes sure they have all thier bases covered. No rogue? They hire one, no mage? they hire one.

Um-hmmm. And there's your problem. You are providing a disincentive for them to take anything else but clerics! This "hiring" thing has got to go if you want an incentive for others to play anything but clerics. This is a very clear example of wanting "A", but rewarding "B".

And that's about all you'll find, I'm afraid. If you had to put 4 characters of the same class together, the group with the best chance of survival (by far) will always be a group of 4 clerics (unless you're playing an all-stealthy campaign... which it doesn't seem you are).

 

[der_kluge]

Clerics are weak in a few areas. Mainly, no good reflex or fortitude saves. So, toss a few dragons at them, or blast them with some fireballs. They're not particularly good fighters either, so hit them with about 20 umber hulks and see how well they fare.

I've house-ruled a few changes to clerics. Mainly, I took away the heavy armor proficiency, and removed a few spells that I didn't think they should have.

 

[Von Ether]

Here are some ideas on promoting diversity.

Hirelings:
Hirelings reach only a certain level. Only the "heroic" PCs have unlimited level advancement in a class (mostly for Rogues)

In your game world, some classes can't be hired, such as wizard or ranger. "What! I am too busy in research to play nurse maid to you in a dungeon."

The hireling's true level is a secret. They have to go off reputation and and any tests they come up with.

Other options:

Promote multiclassing, that will cut the effectiveness of spellcasting and add variety

Replace the generic cleric with the Shugenja of O.A. (so you get all your spellcasting in one class, and you can tweak the schools to represent different things)

Get Rid of standard D&D magic:

Use Green Ronin's Psychic Handbook
WotC's PsiHB
Soverign Stone's magic system

Explore "d20:"
Take a break from standard by-the-book gaming and do things where the standard cleric doesn't exist.

FFG's Horizion line, such as the D&D/Wild West Spellslinger or the "Mean Fairy Tales" of Grimm. ($15 each)

d20 Modern's low magic setting of Urban Arcana (Mongoose has an OGL d20 Modern coming out for $20.)

 

[Hjorimir]

I am still trying to understand the root of the problem here. Generally, DMs create encounters that are relative to the abilities of the player characters. Regardless of what class combinations they players have (all clerics, all druids, etc.) you should be able to challenge them.

If I had a group of all clerics, I'd be challenging them on matters of faith and church politics as much as I would monsters. But I'm weird that way.

On the topic of clerics, I will add that I hold them to the same moral standards (theologically speaking) that I do paladins. It is quite easy for them to fall from grace and they must proceed carefully. No amount of sophistry is tolerated by God (my campaign is mostly monotheistic, but it works in any model really) who does not feel that the end justifies the means. An evil done in the name of good just spawns more evil.

If your players can all handle such a challenge then I say great for them. Enjoy the game, break open the Monster Manual and flip right on over to the d-section – demons and devils, what’s not to like?

 

[Zhure]

Depends on the campaign, but I handle the dearth of clerics in different ways. This campaign I've got restricted "low" magic and clerics aren't on the available class list.

Another way I really like is to custom make all the deities and don't have any two 'good' domains together. The 'good' domains tend to be: War, Magic, Travel, Destruction, Strength and probably a few I'm forgetting. Set it up so no single deity has any two powerful domains.

That seems to work wonders. The clerics suddenly trickled to a stop.

Greg

 

[irdeggman]

I'm assuming that the clerics are all of different deities. Otherwise there would be a severe limitation in the variability of the PCs (specifically in domain choices).

The easiest way to handle this is to use prosletyzing and church competition. Nothing compares to the politics involved with the religious groups.

If you are using generic, i.e., non-diety specific, clerics then there is a huge gap. You are providing the means to do what you say is a problem, well you sort of say it is a problem.

Add color to the setting, have specific churches following very specific dogmas and have churchpolitics be a major factor. Heck there can even be different sects within the same deity's followers. The Birthright setting had many different sects for the same deity and they did not all get along - many of them had more problems with each other than they did with other deities' followers.

This sort of solution is a much longer one. Crafting specific encounters to take advantage of a certain classes weaknesses doesn't make for a long lasting balance.

You could introduce societies and guilds. Have connetions involving rogue guilds or bardic colleges - hence 'rewarding' or having one player's PC have more of involvement in an adventure than another's.

 

[Utrecht]

I would like to highlight the who concept of clerics worshipping different deities. You state that they all play "compatible" gods.

First off, I would question this - Gods (IMO) tend to be vain, egocentric entities who's prime motivation is to extend the sphere of influence. So, sure, gods minions will sometimes work together - and then others - well conflict ensues. I almost liken it to the show Survivor - all people are working together - while still looking out for number one.

Secondly, even if the gods all get along like some celestial version of the stepford wifes - they are represented by an eartly church made up of flawed church members - and they may not like the idea of one of their flock/priests hanging out with the heathens.

Thirdly, clerics are inherently (again IMO) part of a heirarchy of a church - have the church give them missions - they pretty much need to do them - or face excommunication (which has role playing opportunities in itself)

 

[orangefruitbat]

I'd say take advantage of it!

If your players want to run clerics, let them. Run a religious-themed campaign. For example, the game could deal with church politics, a holy war between faiths, or even an epic struggle between gods (ala Time of Troubles). Let most of the party's oppositions be other clerics (with a smattering of druids, wizards and the occiasional holy warrior).

As to encourage diversity, here are some ideas:
*each faith grants a prefered class to allow for convient multiclassing
*use the spell progression rules from UA as to allow spellcasters to multiclass without totally nerfing their effectiveness
*allow the use of the cloistered cleric from UA to provide more clerical choices (personally, I think the cc should be the standard cleric, but not everyone agrees)
*allow all clerics to be proficient in their diety's weapon (for flavor)
*use the 3.5 rules for spells (to cap the duration of the annoying low-level buffs)
*remove cleric's ability to spontaneously cast healing spells and the bonus domain spell. Instead, each cleric can spontaneously cast spells from their two domain spell lists - voilla, clerics are now different from one another. (I think this rule is also in UA, but I've used it as a house-rule now for some time).

 

[Hjorimir]

I will add that I force clerics to gain spells through a prayerbook, which is exactly like a wizard's spellbook. This cuts down on the instant access to every last spell in the game and provides a decent money sink at the same time.

 

[diaglo]

I will add that I force clerics to gain spells through a prayerbook, which is exactly like a wizard's spellbook. This cuts down on the instant access to every last spell in the game and provides a decent money sink at the same time.

did you play in my OD&D campaign back in the late 70's and early 80's?