Help me swing my players away from clerics

[buzzard]

Honestly the solution is fairly simple.

Don't let them rest much. If you stagger a bunch of sequential combats you will wear through their spells. Clerics only rock if they have all their buffs up and running. When all of that is active, they exceed fighters. However they do not have unlimited spells, and will run out of buffs. You just have to allow for that. Make it so that the enemy engages, sees that the buffs are being prepper, and runs to come back and fight when the spells are over. An intelligent foe would do this.

buzzard

 

[Kaji]

I guess I'm in the "What's the problem?" camp. Sounds like they do a great job. If you're having trouble keeping up with all the options available, start removing gods/domains to get a better handle on it. Limit the source material players can use to keep spells under control. (I don't like doing this, actually, but you might like it.) Get a copy of their character sheets, change a few details like race and maybe some equipment, and use the new npc against them. That should be fun.

My group does a lot of the same things with characters, because we all want to play awesome heroes that change the world (for good or evil). If they become so awesome, up the CR on your encounters. A level or two at first, and if that's not enough, go higher. Reduce the XP award a bit. Start giving monsters in your campaign max ranks in Spot/Listen and give EVERYONE Improved Initiative to help get it in before the buff starts. Try fighters with improved disarm who attempt to take away thier holy symbols, or cast grease on the holy symbols they cast with. Attack the holy symbols!!! Familiars try to snatch them, summon monsters grapples them, and so on. Let us know how it goes.

 

[Grizpapa]

It sounds to me in this statement that the proliferation of clerics is a reactionary thing for your players. I know that when I play, I don't like dying; I'm guessing your players don't either. So, when the PC dies, the player, not wanting to die again any time soon, takes the class that looks to have the most longevity, one that can heal itself: the cleric.

Is the game too deadly for PCs of other classes?

A lot of these suggestions would skew the game against playing clerics; which is fine, that is their intention. But is the game, asit stands, already skewed in favour of playing them?

I know I haven't offered any suggestions for a 'fix', but something like this might be the reason for your dilemma.

Finally, some came out with this idea. I think Goblyn could be on the money here.
Did none of you think the maybe the problem was the DMs?

And before anyone flies off the handle here, I'm not trying to bash anyone, I'm just trying to agree wthat there could be an alternate problem.

The first things the DM should look at is him/herself.
Why are all these characters dying?
Are they not playing well?
Have the had some unlucky rolls?
Have I been giving them encounters that are too hard?

Once these questions are answered it would be easier to determine the proper solution.

You say that these players are good at tweaking/min/maxing their characters so that would lead me to believe that their tactics must not be that bad.

Anyway. There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread about making things harder for clerics but nerfing the class is not the way to go.

In my experience, playing clerics in general and "melee" clerics specifically the only time a "melee" cleric starts to surpass a fighter is at higher levels (post level 12) and at that point in time most other classes are or have already surpassed the fighter anyhow.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Indeed, the 'what's the problem?' is strongest in my mind. So you guys are playing clerics all the time.......why is that a bad thing?

 

[Dragonblade]

I don't see the problem. Let them play clerics. Even if they play them because they consider the class tough, let them play what they want.

As long as they are role-playing, who cares?

I personally do not care for some of the heavy handed get-rid-of-their-gods or make-them-evil kind of solutions. Now if your players are immature, rules raping munchkins, and no amount of out-of-game discussion will help them, then those solutions may have a little more merit. Though I would still say its better just to not play with those kinds of people.

But if you are doing it because you essentially want to punish your players for their choice in classes even though they really haven't done anything wrong, then you have deeper problems with your campaign.

Have a talk with your players and also really think about what it is about clerics that bug you. Once you isolate the problem its better to fix the problem with a player discussion or with some house rules that the players can learn about in advance, rather then trying to punish them in-game.

 

[Darklone]

Perhaps his grandfather ?

 

[Hjorimir]

did you play in my OD&D campaign back in the late 70's and early 80's?

I wish, diaglo!

 

[Qualir]

I make all Divine casters Spontaneous casters with a limited spells list. Seems to balance them up nicely (in 3.5).

I am beginning to dislike my newfound love of UA, but the book does offer rules for converting to sponteous divine casters. Also, as I am overly fond of saying lately, try the generic spellcaster. Your party seems to enjoy limitesd class selections anyway.They get access to the cleric spells but are otherwise pretty much wizard/sorcerer hybrids without familiars or turn undead (my biggest dislike aout clerics). This class is very helpful in gaining a novelesque type feel as well. Many authors point out that magic is magic no matter what the caster actually believes. I, personally, have had to add this class becouse noone in my group ever wants to play a cleric

A thing to remember about buffing spells is duration. 3.5 cut into duration in a lot of these spells. I personally houserule that any spell with a 1 minute/level duration lasts the duration of one encounter and then is gone. After all, it generally takes about 10 minutes to come close to thoroughly searching a room.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

As others have said, it doesn't seem like there's too much of a problem here. Your players roleplay their characters well. They know the rules and don't generally abuse them (although they do find nifty synergies within them). And they like to play the same kinds of characters. What's the problem with that?

If you want to encourage diversity in PC class choices, try a few other things before punishing the PCs for playing clerics.

Look into allowing use of the Favored Soul from the miniature's handbook. It's a bit like a cleric but some players might like the idea of spontaneously casting from the cleric list.

Restrict the availability of NPC hirelings--and/or their trustworthiness. Hiring an honest rogue isn't that easy.

Consider adding a little extra to other classes. Use the exotic weapons from Complete Warrior and give fighters a bonus exotic weapon proficiency at level 2 or 3. (You might want to do that at level 2 and move the lvl 2 bonus feat to lvl 3 or even give it at level 1 and move the bonus feat from 1st level to lvl 3 so that characters can immediately start using their weapon of choice). You could also take the Exotic Weapon Master Stunts from Complete Warrior and make them Fighter bonus feats with prereq: Fighter lvl 6.

Consider giving paladins a bit of a boost too. Maybe Divine Might as a bonus feat at seventh level or something. Or Divine Vigor as a bonus feat. Heck, you could give paladins ALL of the divine feats from Complete Warrior (except Divine Might and possibly Divine Shield) without overbalancing them too badly. (Because most of the divine feats are of very limited use).

You could try using the 3.0 Uncanny Dodge progression for rogues. And maybe give rogues organizations (to keep the same party focus, you could use organizations like: the Eye of Lathander (secret organization dedicated to Lathander that infiltrates and gathers info on evil groups) rather than the Sopranos guild of Waterdeep) that grant them bonusses to some skills (Gather Info, Use Magic Device (for cleric items), Search, Sense Motive).

You could go back to the 3.0 opposition schools for non-necromancer wizards or even give wizards specialization without ANY barred school. (Nobody would play a generalist, but is that a problem?) You could also use the domain sorceror Vrylakos and I developed years ago to make sorcerors more interesting
http://members.tripod.com/vrylakos/classes/sorcerer_domain_system.htm

Or you could emphasize some of the combat aspects that tend to give clerics trouble:
-Reflex Saves--Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, etc. But also effects like Otiluke's Resilient Sphere and Grease.
-Dispelling. At high levels (when buffed clerics get really good at melee), everyone should pack dispel magics. Give your bad guys Dispel Magic, Greater Dispelling, and Chained Dispel Magic spells (target all of the PCs with one spell).

Alternatively, when starting a new campaign, you could give it a very strong story hook: The king of Goodjustlandia is sending out parties to quest for the Holy MacGuffin. You are one of those groups. Selected and balanced by the king's trusted advisor, your party will have: A cleric or favored soul. A fighter or paladin. A rogue or Fighter/rogue (use DMG option for 1st level multiclass), ranger, or ranger/rogue (1st level multiclass). A wizard, sorceror, warmage, or bard. A bard, fighter/wizard (1st level multiclass), or marshal. Let the players decide which role they want to take on.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

hm... most of these options seem extreme IMO. I agree with clerics being too easy to be the most powerful, so I limited them a tad in the game I DM, and none of the players want a cleric because of it.

Try eliminating a domain spell and taking away some of the few skill points they have. Also limit the weapons they can use back to bludegeoning only per OD&D. Rules munchkins will jump ship on the class, even if you include getting the domain back after 5 or so levels.

Or you can adopt anti-cleric tactics until the players become frustrated with the class and diversify.

I realize I did "jump ship" on the idea of playing a cleric once I saw MarauderX's changes... have gone to druid instead, but then I've never played a druid before and I have played clerics in Basic/Expert, 2E, and 3E. Seeing such a large number of changes to the cleric class might lead one to infer that the DM has something against clerics and that this wouldn't be the best game in which to play one. Although in your case, where the players know you, it might be different. So, speaking as one who has been deterred from playing a cleric by game adjustments:

The existing "simple weapons only unless you spend a feat" seems more logical than "blunt weapons only" when considering the huge range of deities, so I'd recommend sticking with the existing restriction. Power level aside (it's a trivial difference between a heavy mace and a longsword), I never thought it made any sense that every good pantheon had come to the same arms control agreement on blunt weapons only for their clerics. You could plausibly reduce the armor proficiency to light and medium, which might mean that someone somewhere actually wears chain mail.

Domain and weapon restrictions are not a big deal. What really killed MarauderX's cleric for me was a specific statement that undead are very rare in the campaign (I love to hate vampires and think Turning and the anti-undead spells are awesome - but none of my clerics have had the opportunity to really cut loose on the living dead since Basic set) and a general statement that most people in the world don't typically consider the will of the gods to be important. The changes had a minor effect on the class's abilities, but reduced the opportunities for clerics to be useful in a way other than medic.

I would suggest adding more non-cleric healing options - dilute the power of the "medic" function rather than the other functions. Not anything so complicated as a WP/VP system, but something like certain roots and herbs that provide healing equal to 8 hours bed rest, increasing the effect of the heal skill, or having the party find a rod usable by any class that works as a staff of healing. Those changes would make the cleric less essential for survival. Otherwise, if you nerf the cleric too much, nobody wants to play it but somebody still has to.

Beef up the other classes slightly. More skill points for wizards, a few bonus feats for rogues, or unique special abilities for fighters (e.g., take 10 on an attack roll once per day). I realize it's a bit of power creep, but it's not going to kill your game. And, actually, to make them compare better with clerics, beef up their weak points, particularly against magic.

Finally, don't let the PCs find trustworthy like-minded independent mercenary rogues or wizards of equal level who happen to have some time on their hands. That's asking a lot of serendipity, isn't it?