Help please. Complaints by players!

[Gallo22]

Or you could take the approach of not telling the player what the DC actually is. Have them make their save and if they don't make, simply say, "You failed (and add any flare beyond that)".

This is EXACTLY what I did. I never give the DC first. I tell them if they made it or not. After he rolled a 19 he questioned me on it, saying a slippery bridge should only be 15!! It just gets frustrating and this incident really slowed the game down at an important part, the Hag was just across the bridge waiting to attack with her minions!!

 

[Mark Chance]

Pretty reasonable if you ask me. Well...the most dextrous member of the party tests the bridge and rolls a 19, slipping, but not falling over due to precautions of holding onto a rope. He then goes to the players handbook to tell me that the DC should only be 15, because thats what the "balance" skill says.

Look player straight in the eye. Say:

"I don't care what you think the book says the DC should be. I'm running this adventure. Not you. Not the book."

Or something to that effect.

 

[Tsyr]

Define "rope bridge". It can mean a lot of things.

If you're talking about the type that is one rope to tightrope across and two ropes on either side to steady yourself, you did fine.

If you're talking about the type with planks suspended across ropes... Honestly, I would have set it at DC 15 (Wide surface, slippery). And probably given them a bonus because they had something to grab on to (The ropes the bridge is suspended from).

 

[Gallo22]

Define "rope bridge". It can mean a lot of things.

If you're talking about the type that is one rope to tightrope across and two ropes on either side to steady yourself, you did fine.

If you're talking about the type with planks suspended across ropes... Honestly, I would have set it at DC 15 (Wide surface, slippery). And probably given them a bonus because they had something to grab on to (The ropes the bridge is suspended from).

It was the later, a wood/rope bridge, like in Temple of Doom. keep in mind, it was also a trap, not just a normal slippery bridge. I just don't see a DC 15 as much of a challenge for a 9th rogue with a 20 dex!

 

[Zogg]

I would definitely dock him for arguing against your DC - he should hold those kind of comments till the end of the game and his rules-lawyering ruins the game for other players that want to keep up the role-playing atmosphere.

In the future, illustrate your displeasure by increasing the DC in creative ways.

"Sorry, mister rogue, but the DC stands. In fact, it has just started raining quite hard, increasing the DC to cross the bridge by +5. What do you do NOW?"

 

[Henry]

It also depends on how they crossed it (going slowly probably should give a bonus to succeed, dashing across should give a penalty, etc.) but frankly, the DM sets the final DC of a task, not the books. The books are guidelines, just as the DMG reinforces.

Some players ignore this fact, and argue as if the books are a final authority. Official, yes. Final Authority, no.

 

[Tsyr]

Once again, this has devolved into a chorus of "DM is God, smite insolent players!"... *sigh* And once again, this could have been such an interesting debate.

It was the later, a wood/rope bridge, like in Temple of Doom. keep in mind, it was also a trap, not just a normal slippery bridge. I just don't see a DC 15 as much of a challenge for a 9th rogue with a 20 dex!

It depends what type of game you run...

Do you want to stick to the rules when there are set rules for a situation? If so, the rules do, technicaly, say that a DC15 is appropriate for this type of encounter.

Now, regarding it being a challenge for a 9th level rogue with 20 dex...

This is one of those "How much does the world morph to accomodate your players" questions... I mean, why should everything ALWAYS be a challenge for them? Does nobody ever pick a fight in your world that they aren't ready for?

I ask this honestly... I've played under some GMs who will have our PCs stumble upon challenges far beyond our abilities, and tell us "The world isn't tailored to you alone, sometimes things will be too hard for you", but never explore the logical flipside of that and have things that are too easy for us.

I mean, if your only concern is "Is it a tough DC check", then fine, DC 20. Run with that. No need to ask us. But you did ask us for opinions. So...

Honestly, I can see the players side here... There is a book-set rule for this. While DMs are free to change these rules as they see fit, that doesn't mean they *must* always change these rules. There are times when the rules are fine as they are. Otherwise it turns into a GM/PC arms race... The world (as a whole) starts becomming more dangerous just because PCs can now handle more. In that case, why level, ne? Getting better at stuff *should* let you do stuff easy at times, doubly so when it actualy counts for something. Not always, but I'd be pretty upset if the only advantage to gaining levels was just the level gain itself... It's nice to feel that "Hey, I can do some stuff now without much worry!", once and a while.

One question, you didn't answer: Were the PCs holding onto the rope-rails? If so, I *definetly* think that you should have either lowered the DC check, or given them a fair sized bonus for that.

 

[TiQuinn]

Some people need to always win in a game, or they pout. Rarely, if ever, do these contested decisions mean life or death for the character. I remind players of that often, and just tell them to move on. Afterwards, I'll let them vent (if they haven't forgotten by then), and I'll explain my logic. If that doesn't suit them, I tell them when they're the DM they can run it however they want to. Also, more often that not, the other players get sick of the whining and shut the player up for me.

 

[TiQuinn]

Honestly, I can see the players side here... There is a book-set rule for this. While DMs are free to change these rules as they see fit, that doesn't mean they *must* always change these rules. There are times when the rules are fine as they are. Otherwise it turns into a GM/PC arms race... The world (as a whole) starts becomming more dangerous just because PCs can now handle more. In that case, why level, ne? Getting better at stuff *should* let you do stuff easy at times, doubly so when it actualy counts for something. Not always, but I'd be pretty upset if the only advantage to gaining levels was just the level gain itself... It's nice to feel that "Hey, I can do some stuff now without much worry!", once and a while.

One question, you didn't answer: Were the PCs holding onto the rope-rails? If so, I *definetly* think that you should have either lowered the DC check, or given them a fair sized bonus for that.

There are two bridges. One is a solid wooden cantilever bridge, the other is a rope suspension bridge that can sway. Both are slippery with slime. Should both be DC 15 because the book says so? As much as the book tries, it can't be the Be-All, End-All authoritative source. Let the players play, and let the DM DM.

Also, I don't think DC 20 for a 9th level rogue is a major or unreasonable challenge.

As for whether challenges should scale in level, I believe they should. And I agree that you also have to let your players cut loose with their superior abilities too. There is a balance to be struck. I'm not sure that this was an issue here, however.

 

[Tsyr]

There are two bridges. One is a solid wooden cantilever bridge, the other is a rope suspension bridge that can sway. Both are slippery with slime. Should both be DC 15 because the book says so?

By some schools of thought, yes.

Of course, we know very little about this bridge.

How long was it?

How well built?

What were the planks like?

Was it windy that day?