Help revamping Assassin/Arcane Trickster

[hanniball]

Hi all. This is my first thread here, so please forgive me if the format is unattractive .

I have a player who wishes to update one of her characters that I DMd for extensively in 3.0. She had a blast playing this character from 1-20th lvl and wishes to continue it's legacy with the new 3.5 ruleset. I have allowed her to adjust her levels to accomodate the multitude of new material available as long as the same overall concept is represented (an evil assassin-mage archetype)

Her build looked like this:

NE Human Ranger 1/Rog 3/Ftr 1/Assassin 7/Wizard 1/Arcane Trickster 7

Stats:
18 Str (12 Base + 6 belt)
30 Dex (17 base + 2 lvls +5 book +6 belt)
16 Con (14 base + 6 belt)
32 Int (18 Base + 3 lvls + 5 book +6 belt)
16 Wis (10 Base + 6 belt)
23 Cha (13 Base + 4 book + 6 belt)

BAB +12, +10D6 sneak attack, 8th lvl wizard casting, 7th lvl assassin casting, death attack DC 17+Int, evasion, etc.

Feats: Weapon Finesse (Human), Combat Reflexes (1), Ambidexterity (Rgr 1), TWF (Rgr 1), Expert Tactician [song&silence] (3), Quick Draw (Ftr 1), Flick of the Wrist [song&silence] (6), Dirty Fighting [sword&fist] (9), Improved TWF (12), Scribe Scroll (wiz 1), Empower Spell (15), Split Ray [tome&blood] (18)

So it's kinda all over the place, but does include some fairly optimized feat selections from 3.0 material. She wanted some early-game martial prowess leading into Assassin, but once she actually started assassinating people, she quickly came to the conclusion that it would have been more wise to focus her concentration on casting. She changed her character plan, mid-campaign, to include more arcane potential and thus led so some painfully frustrating sessions for her. She just didn't feel like she could contribute with neither aspect of her character fully developed. Lobbing 4th level spells around at 20th level is almost laughable, she said.

I argued this saying she had a boatload of Sneak Attack dice, she just needs to learn how to use them. Now, you will be hosed by Globe of Invulnerability, but that's when you drop the spells, pick up those daggers and flank with the tank for a round or two.

Nonetheless, she now seeks to recreate her character in a fashion that will include higher level spell access, but also retain a comparable Death Attack DC and Sneak Attack. She may be asking too much, but here's what I came up with and would like comments on. Suggestions for alternative builds are most welcome and are, in fact, greatly appreciated.

Sources: Core (PHB,DMG,MM), the Complete Arcane, Warrior, Adventurer, and Divine, Player's Guide to Faerun, Unapproachable East, Races of Faerun, Races of Destiny, and PHb II.

Level: 20

Rog 3/Hexblade 2/Assassin 8/Nar demonbinder 1/Arcane Trickster 6

+13 BAB, +9D6 sneak attack, cha-to-saves, 7th lvl Nar D casting (8th lvl spells, CL 19), 8th lvl assassin casting (4th lvl spells, CL 8), Hide in Plain Sight, Death attack DC 18+int, etc.

Feats: Able Learner (Human), TWF (1), weapon finesse (3), Iron Will (6), Staggering Strike (9), Spell Focus: Conjuration (12), Practiced Spellcaster: Nar demonbinder (15), Quicken Spell (18)

 

[szilard]

What sort of spells does she typically cast?

-Stuart

 

[Iku Rex]

Warning: I'm not all that familiar with this type of character, so I may have overlooked some rule issues.

That said, I suggest:

Rog4/Bard 1/Assassin 5/Sublime Chord 2 (CArc)/Arcane Trickster 8

Feats: Able Learner (RacDest)(Human), TWF (1), Weapon Finesse (3), Extra Music (CAdv) (6), ImpTWF (9), Practiced Spellcaster: Sublime Chord (CDiv)(12), ? (15), Quicken Spell (18)

+11 BAB, +9D6 sneak attack, 9th lvl sublime chord casting (4th-9th lvl spells from Sor/Wiz/Brd, CL 18+?), 5th lvl assassin casting (3rd lvl spells, CL 7? 14? 18?), Death attack DC 15+Int.

The sublime chord uses charisma-based casting, so she'll need a high Cha. Should be possible with 20th level equipment. The character's greatest strength is her spellcasting so the player will have to make an effort to find and use useful spells.

The "singing assassin" concept may seem silly, but call it an "ancient death chant" instead and it's not so bad.

 

[starwed]

The "singing assassin" concept may seem silly, but call it an "ancient death chant" instead and it's not so bad.

Hey, I wrote up a prestige class for that once! (No ancient death chant, though; it was modeled after the musican/assassins in Kung-fu Shuffle.)

 

[hanniball]

Warning: I'm not all that familiar with this type of character, so I may have overlooked some rule issues.

Thanks Rex, I love it. I'll see what she thinks; for some reason I just know she'll want to toss Ability Focus: Death Attack in that open slot...

At a glance, it looks mechanically sound to me and very potent indeed. I had initially suggested a Sublime Chord build to her, but she just knew she'd eventually run up against an NPC taunting her with, "What'r ya gonna do, sing me to death!?" She couldn't handle that.

I am confused by the Sublime Chord's caster level adjucation, however. Do you know of a thread that discusses different interpretations in depth? I'd really like to see substantial evidence for the differing opinions.

What sort of spells does she typically cast?

Ah, she was quite savvy in her spell selection. During her pre-wizard career she utilized the few assassin spells she had available to escape (Freedom of Movement, Spiderclimb, Dim Door), control the battlefield (Deeper Darkness, Obscuring Mist), infiltrate (Change self, Alter Self) and assassinate (Poison, Improved Invisibility).

She developed a bit of a lust for arcane might and felt that the assassin spell list was just a tease. So, she took up the spellbook and began pulling out some strange tricks with lower level spells. Nothing inherently broken, merely, impressive. With that one level of Wizard she gained access to the Tome&Blood spells Lesser Acid Orb and Negative Energy Ray. Her new tactics involved running around Imp. Invisible, sneak attacking casters with balls of acid and tanks with rays of negative energy. She rarely had to risk going into melee anymore and quickly reached Arcane Trickster.

With 2nd level wizard spells available (at 15th lvl mind you) she started Empowering (via a lesser rod) Fox's cunning and jacking her Death Attack DC through the roof. She also had a Spectral Hand to deliver any touch spells for her. Mirror Image caused quite a few problems until the True Seeing's started becoming more frequent.

At the culmination of her career, she was only ever able to cast third level wizard spells. In this moderately powerful campaign, that's all she really needed with her +10D6 sneak attack, Haste, and a few good ranged touch attack spells. She did get outclassed quite often at the end game. That tends to happen when you have both sides of a CoDzilla in your party.

Anyway, thanks for the responses. Keep them coming.

 

[Darklone]

Hi all. This is my first thread here, so please forgive me if the format is unattractive .
...
Her build looked like this:

NE Human Ranger 1/Rog 3/Ftr 1/Assassin 7/Wizard 1/Arcane Trickster 7

Stats:
18 Str (12 Base + 6 belt)
30 Dex (17 base + 2 lvls +5 book +6 belt)
16 Con (14 base + 6 belt)
32 Int (18 Base + 3 lvls + 5 book +6 belt)
16 Wis (10 Base + 6 belt)
23 Cha (13 Base + 4 book + 6 belt)

BAB +12, +10D6 sneak attack, 8th lvl wizard casting, 7th lvl assassin casting, death attack DC 17+Int, evasion, etc.

Feats: Weapon Finesse (Human), Combat Reflexes (1), Ambidexterity (Rgr 1), TWF (Rgr 1), Expert Tactician [song&silence] (3), Quick Draw (Ftr 1), Flick of the Wrist [song&silence] (6), Dirty Fighting [sword&fist] (9), Improved TWF (12), Scribe Scroll (wiz 1), Empower Spell (15), Split Ray [tome&blood] (18)
...
Sources: Core (PHB,DMG,MM), the Complete Arcane, Warrior, Adventurer, and Divine, Player's Guide to Faerun, Unapproachable East, Races of Faerun, Races of Destiny, and PHb II.

To me that build (TWF daggers, sneak attack and wizard spells) screams for the Daggermage in Comp Adv. I love that she used Flick of the Wrist, an often underused feat with style. Dirty Fighting though? Did you houserule it?

Ability focus Death attack is a must.

Human paragon levels would work quite well with getting feats and losing just one spellcaster level...

Anyhow:
Rog3, wiz2, Ass5, Daggermage10.
- You'll cast like a level 12 wizard and a 5th level assassin... not too strong.
- Death attack just a little weaker than before
- sneak attack only 8d6.

BAB would be 13. Not too famous either. She'll have to look at the Daggermage class whether she likes the touch spell abilities.

 

[szilard]

What about just subbing in 5 levels of Wizard spell progression for the Assassin's spell progression?

Then you can have something like:

Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Assassin 8/Arcane Trickster 7

I'd also be tempted to see what you could do with Beguiler. You could possibly dispense with Rogue, then... but BAB might suffer.

-Stuart

 

[hanniball]

To me that build (TWF daggers, sneak attack and wizard spells) screams for the Daggermage in Comp Adv. I love that she used Flick of the Wrist, an often underused feat with style. Dirty Fighting though? Did you houserule it?

The way we read it [Dirty Fighting], it provided an extra 1D4 damage on all melee attacks. I didn't find it unbalancing, but was there some errata I missed?

Ability focus Death attack is a must.

Human paragon levels would work quite well with getting feats and losing just one spellcaster level...

Ever since she saw Ability Focus in the Monster Manual she fell in love with it. It'll definitely see a place in her update build.

As for Human Paragon, unfortunately UA is not allowed in any of my campaigns. Thanks though.

Anyhow:
Rog3, wiz2, Ass5, Daggermage10.
- You'll cast like a level 12 wizard and a 5th level assassin... not too strong.
- Death attack just a little weaker than before
- sneak attack only 8d6.

BAB would be 13. Not too famous either. She'll have to look at the Daggermage class whether she likes the touch spell abilities.

The DSM is an excellent suggestion! Many thanks. However, I have realized that it will, likely, be more beneficial to utilize a faster casting-progression class to generate higher level arcane might. Unfortunately, this leaves me with only two choices. Which would you prefer, Nar Demonbinder or Sublime Chord?

Rog 3/Hexblade 2/Assassin 8/Nar Demonbinder 1/Daggerspell mage 6

+14 BAB, +8D6 sneak attack, 8th lvl spells (CL 19), 4th lvl spells (CL 8), Death Attack DC 20+Int, Hide in Plain Sight

Rog 4/Bard 1/Assassin 5/Sublime chord 2/Daggerspell mage 8

+13 BAB, +7D6 sneak attack, 9th lvl spells (CL18), 3rd lvl spells (CL 14), Death Attack DC 17+Int

I'm having a hard time choosing...

 

[hanniball]

What about just subbing in 5 levels of Wizard spell progression for the Assassin's spell progression?

Then you can have something like:

Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Assassin 8/Arcane Trickster 7

I'd also be tempted to see what you could do with Beguiler. You could possibly dispense with Rogue, then... but BAB might suffer.

-Stuart

Replacing the Assassin spell progression with a scattered +1 existing spellcasting class progression would be an interesting house-rule and something I'll have to consider. For now, I'd like to see what I do with what's already available. The only problem I have with Beguiler is that they don't have Mage Hand on their list of spells known, so it would require the Spell Hand or Magical Training feat. Thanks though!

 

[Darklone]

The way we read it [Dirty Fighting], it provided an extra 1D4 damage on all melee attacks. I didn't find it unbalancing, but was there some errata I missed?

IIRC it is one attack as a full round action which deals more damage... Pretty weak.

As a +1d4 damage to all attacks it would be a non brainer for any melee char.

Ever since she saw Ability Focus in the Monster Manual she fell in love with it. It'll definitely see a place in her update build.

The DSM is an excellent suggestion! Many thanks. However, I have realized that it will, likely, be more beneficial to utilize a faster casting-progression class to generate higher level arcane might. Unfortunately, this leaves me with only two choices. Which would you prefer, Nar Demonbinder or Sublime Chord?
...
I'm having a hard time choosing...

I'd go for the 9th level spells... everything else is nice to have but not that powerful.