HELP! Rogue/Ranger Tiefling too powerful?!

[Fiendish Dire Weasel]

Ahhh, it looks like the problem here is the character is broken I'm sorry to say.

If the group is 6th level he should only have 5 character levels as Tiefling is ECL+1.

A 5th (even 6th) level Rogue/Ranger with Con14 having 47hp seems stange that is almost max HP (52 would be max possible).

He has 5 non-virtual feats while only having 2 feat choices available at 5th level (3 at 6th)

Two of the feats, Outsider Wings and Spring Attack are missing prerequisites.

Also, if he has 23ac and the Fighter next to him only 15 the Tiefling has to have a lot more/better magic items.

I'm all for people doing whatever they want in the game but if this character is out of control in your game it looks like it is because either you let him get that way (though poorly thought out house rules or not paying attention to what he was doing) or the guy is cheating somthing fierce. The rules out of the books aren't responsable for the problem. Don't take this as some kind of attack, I'm not trying to bash you or anything. I have seen similar things occur when a new powergamer (or the worst kind of powergamer: the kind who doesn't actually know or follow the rules) joins a group and isn't watched carefully. The best advice I can give for this type of thing is never allow anyone to take any race/class/feat/ability until you read it and are comfortable with it. No matter how many "Awww, c'mon"'s they give you

My best advice for dealing with the Tiefling would have him encounter a nice 8th level 1/2 Orc Barbarian or somthing else with 22+ Str with a greataxe and the Knockdown feat from Sword & Fist and remove the Tiefling from the game.

 

[takyris]

Um, if he's only 6th level, how the heck can he be a Shadowdancer at all? You can't qualify for Shadowdancer unless you have 10 ranks in Hide, which means that he'd have to be at least Ranger1/Rogue6 -- and he can't be anything better than Ranger1/Rogue4 and be a Shadowdancer, yah?

So, one problem at a time.

He's probably using his wings in ways that his maneuverability class didn't intend, like everyone else already said. Make him produce a character sheet. Look at what he's got. Look and make sure that he actually qualifies for all his stuff.

Make sure that enemies aren't stupid. If he's flying, he has no way to hide, and unless he burned a lot of feats, he can't hover, so the best he can do is fly around invisibly and then get ONE sneak attack, since he has to keep moving.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and it's very very possible that I am, but I may have a really easy way to limit his effectiveness.

Tiefling. Outsider, yes? Now, it may have been hashed out in the rules, and somebody could tell me I'm full of it, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that as an outsider, a Tiefling character was:

ECL+1
Dex +2, Int+2, Cha-2
Fire, Cold, Electricity Resistance 5
+2 Bonus to Hide, Bluff
Darkness 1/day
Unaffected by "Person" spells (Charm person, hold person)
Susceptible to being completely and totally nerfed in all his powergaming goodness by single "Protection from Evil", which stops him from making melee attacks against anyone so protected unless they attack him first.

Just like a 20th-level monk can be stopped by Protection from Evil (although he gets to use his SR to try and overcome it), our Tiefling flyboy can't make attacks on any wizard, sorcerer, paladin, or bard smart enough to cast that first-level humdinger on him- or herself.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd say that once the bad guy clerics see the Tiefling dude coming at them with his wings and stuff, their first move is going to be to cast Protection from (insert alignment here). After that, they'll start casting spells with Will saves. His Will saves most likely stink. They will keep doing this while their buddies make mincemeat out of him.

Note: Again, I could be wrong. Check with the rules lawyers to be sure.

 

[clark411]

"Susceptible to being completely and totally nerfed in all his powergaming goodness by single "Protection from Evil", which stops him from making melee attacks against anyone so protected unless they attack him first."

Well, your average, run of the mill tiefling isn't hedged out by PoE or the like unless it's an outsider that's been called or summoned into combat, and even then it's only natural attacks.. so a summoned monk tiefling would have a hard time breaking the will save to actually hit a PoE'd opponent, but otherwise .. that's really non-issue.

Also, bat wings don't really mean Will Saves.. rogues generally do however... although dependant on the DM that can be a little to metagamey, or a totally valid tactic. What they do mean is "maneuverability that will negate the presense of our fighters between them and us sniveling wussy boy casters." =)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Could we get his entire character sheet listing ... along with the greataxe-wielding dwarf's sheet?

I don't see how a 7th-level fighter has an AC of only 15... Full plate alone gives you +8 to AC right there.

 

[rounser]

our Tiefling flyboy

He's pretty fly for a fell guy.

 

[Camarath]

Oh yeah, str 14, dex 18, con 14, int 18, wis 14, cha 9...and yes I saw him roll all this.

Feats: Weapon Finesse (short sword), Dodge, Two Weapon Fighting, Ambidexterity, Track, Weapon Focus (short sword), Spring Attack, and Outsider Wings (not sure if that's really a feat or a feature of his race)

Gawd Awmighty!

You need Fiendish Bloodline which require a base +1 to all saves (min lv 3 feat for this character) to take Outsider Wings (min lv 6 for this character). This character should have only one other non-bonus/virtual feat. I assume the character is ECL 7 six from class levels and one from the LA +1 of the telfling. If he is only character lv 5 he can not have taken the feat. Also as a multiclassed character the only was he could take Outsider Wings at 6th lv is a level 3/ level 3 split (with one class strait till 3rd to pick up Fiendish Bloodline) other wise he would have to wait till level 9. The feat gives average maneuverability so you can not hover and Spring Attack does not work when flying. IMO either this character was very badly built or your player is trying to cheat. I as a principle do not players use things in supplements I do not have or am not familiar with. Also how is he gettting his sneak attack all the time? He should get it on each attack but only if flanking or if his opponent is denied his dex bonus.

 

[Camarath]

If this is indead an intentional decption I suggest you talk to the player and consider if you want to keep playing with him. The character needs to have a personal encounter with a Half-Celestial Half-Elemental (fire) Half-Golem (clay failed save) Troll [CR 11] of Divine DM Retribution.

 

[takyris]

Well, your average, run of the mill tiefling isn't hedged out by PoE or the like unless it's an outsider that's been called or summoned into combat, and even then it's only natural attacks.. so a summoned monk tiefling would have a hard time breaking the will save to actually hit a PoE'd opponent, but otherwise .. that's really non-issue.

Hm. Interesting. As I said, I wasn't sure -- but I did look at the monk description, where it says, "At 20th level, the monk is considered an outsider. Blah blah blah no charm person, blah blah blah DR20/+1. Note that as an outsider, he is susceptible to blocking effects like Protection from Law."

Please note that I have the old pre-errata'd PHB, so if this has been sussed out already, s'all good. But my assumption has been that if the monk became vulnerable to PfromE just because he hit level 20 and became "considered an outsider", the Tiefling would get it for his bloodline. And as a balance factor (no Charm Person, Hold Person, etc.), it made sense to me. As I said, however -- the Sage & Co. could have said differently. Anyone got a link for me?

As a side note, I believe that it's not just natural attacks but all melee attacks. Spellcasting is fine, ranged weapons are fine, but attacking with a greatsword is not. Again, I could be wrong, but I'm more sure about that than I am about the "All non-Good outsiders are susceptible to PfromE because of the line in the Monk description."

Also, bat wings don't really mean Will Saves.. rogues generally do however...

Not sure if I was unclear there, but yeah -- was not trying to allude to the wings, but to the fact that our winged wonder, as a Rogue4/Ranger1, has a Will save of +1 base, possibly with a bit from Wisdom. Not huge, and very easy to freeze with any spell that has a "monster" descriptor instead of a "person" descriptor.

can be a little to metagamey, or a totally valid tactic.

Well, not really. It's not metagamey for a person who grew up in a D&D world to see a dude with a greatsword and heavy armor and think, "Bet I could charm him more easily than I could petrify him." Or, by the same token, to see a lightly armored dude fighting with light weaponry and quick, cunning strikes and think, "I bet he'd probably just scuttle out of the way of any fireballs I tossed in his direction." People who grow up in a D&D world know how their D&D world works.

Metagamey would be, "Well, if he's a CR equal to our level, that means that he has evasion, but not uncanny dodge against flanking, and our DM wouldn't send a rogue who was more powerful than us against us without letting us learn more about him first so we could be ready. Let's just attack. We're probably fine."

But yeah, basically, what you said.

EDIT: Just hunted through the FAQ and found a strongly worded line that put me squarely in the wrong. Seems stupid to me given the monk line, but it appears that the MONK line is the wrong one, or at least, should be rephrased to indicate that outsiderness is not an automatic "Vulnerable to Protection from" card.

 

[Blasphemonkey]

umm...if he's only lvl 6, how can he have sneak attack damage 4d6, considering that he could only have 4 levels in rogue max, what with level in ranger and the ECL of Tielfing? Shortsword of Subtlety?

His sneak attack is really 2d6, but he is dual wielding short swords, so the other 2d6 comes from his normal "un-sneak attack" damage.

 

[Blasphemonkey]

Ahhh, it looks like the problem here is the character is broken I'm sorry to say.

If the group is 6th level he should only have 5 character levels as Tiefling is ECL+1.

Correct there. He's a level 1 ranger, level 3 rogue, 5 character levels, yet ECL = 6.

A 5th (even 6th) level Rogue/Ranger with Con14 having 47hp seems stange that is almost max HP (52 would be max possible).

He is rolling very well indeed.

He has 5 non-virtual feats while only having 2 feat choices available at 5th level (3 at 6th)

Two of the feats, Outsider Wings and Spring Attack are missing prerequisites.

I've seen the other notes on this, and thanks so much to you and everyone else for pointing this out. I'm going to iron this thing out with him next game!

Also, if he has 23ac and the Fighter next to him only 15 the Tiefling has to have a lot more/better magic items.

He does have elven chain and some other nice items. I had them for sale in a city they ventured to, and didn't think they'd have enough money to buy that for awhile. Needless to say, he coerced the entire adventuring party to pool up their money to get the elven chain for him, saying that it was for the good of the group, since he was going to be sneaking ahead as rogue, he'd need the protection. I have to agree with him that he would, but while I'm surprised the group gave up practically all their GP for him, I had to let them do it, because...well, it's their money.

I'm all for people doing whatever they want in the game but if this character is out of control in your game it looks like it is because either you let him get that way (though poorly thought out house rules or not paying attention to what he was doing) or the guy is cheating somthing fierce. The rules out of the books aren't responsable for the problem. Don't take this as some kind of attack, I'm not trying to bash you or anything. I have seen similar things occur when a new powergamer (or the worst kind of powergamer: the kind who doesn't actually know or follow the rules) joins a group and isn't watched carefully. The best advice I can give for this type of thing is never allow anyone to take any race/class/feat/ability until you read it and are comfortable with it. No matter how many "Awww, c'mon"'s they give you

Oh no, I don't take it wrong at all, I appreciate you and the others pointing it out to me, thanks! This player is a very likeable and nice guy, and seems very knowledgable about the rules. Maybe he just wants to win so bad that he, ahem... "overlooks" some things, or maybe he did just make a few honest errors. But this really helps a lot, thanks again.

My best advice for dealing with the Tiefling would have him encounter a nice 8th level 1/2 Orc Barbarian or somthing else with 22+ Str with a greataxe and the Knockdown feat from Sword & Fist and remove the Tiefling from the game.

Hehe, very evil idea...I won't go that far. But if this isn't salvaged, let me just say I might decide not to fudge any die rolls in his favor when he's down to 2 HP. I'll just...ahem..."overlook" it.