D&D 5E Help with power gaming

[Glitchezz]

Both of my builds, the Fighter/Paladin and Fighter/Barbarian, have a crazy high AC. The Paladin version would have plate, shield, and defensive fighting style for a 21 AC without magic. The Barbarian version has an unarmored AC of 22.

The frenzy Barbarian still has melee resistance while raging, but I would probably go Bear Totem if it were my build though. The exhaustion levels from the frenzy barb is just too harsh in my opinion. You can gain those extra attacks through feats anyway. The Battle Master Fighter is strong, but I like Champion better for a build like this. I think it fits the Barb theme best. You get the awesome extra crit chances, two fighting styles, the extra athleticism, and the 12hp regen you'd get per round when injured. The Barbarian class is made for crit fishing and so does the Half Orc race.

Three levels of Rogue(Assassin) is only going to give you 2d6 sneak damage and yes, it's set up to have a monstrous first round.

So unarmored AC would be 22 because of 10+5dex+7con?
How would you get extra attacks from feats, i don't think i saw any like that?
Also how would you go about leveling this level 20 bear totem barbarian/20 champion fighter? Start as fighter go to level 3 then barbarian to level 3 and then both to 5? Which one should be taken to 20 first or do i level them kinda equally?

 

[CTurbo]

Yes 22 AC from 10+5Dex+7Con. Note: this build COULD use a shield for an AC of 24, but you'd limit yourself to the Dueling Fighting Style instead of the Great Weapon Fighting Style.

This build assume the Great Weapon Master feat which gives you two different ways to get a Bonus action attack. Face it, any character like this with a big two handed weapon is going to take this feat. The Sentinel feat makes it much MUCH easier to get an Attack of Opportunity and is also going to be a top tier feat for a build like this. Note: the Frenzy Barb has a reliable way to get a Bonus Action attack as well as an even easier way to get a Reaction attack, but they come at the cost of exhaustion.

As far as level progression, I would not flip flop back and forth between the two very much. Are you starting this build at level 1? Are you rolling for stats or starting with a standard array or point buy? If your stats suck, Start Fighter and go to level 6 or 8 before flipping to Barb. Fighter gets that extra ASI/Feat option at 6. You absolutely want that second attack before multiclassing for sure. Fighter 6, then Barb 5 would get you the 3rd attack just as quick as Fighter 11. If you start with strong stats, I would probably start with Barb 5 and then jump over to Fighter 5 to get the 3rd attack as quick as possible. Plus, starting Barb is more fun IMO. You'd be tougher for sure. After level 10 or so, it wouldn't make that much difference. I still don't think I would ever take less than 4 levels in a row to keep getting those ASI/feats as fast as possible. Barb5/Fighter11 gets you the 4th attack at level16. I could see going Barb5, Fighter20, and then finishing out as Barb.

 

[Gammadoodler]

FYI, the Champion Fighter 20/Devotion Paladin 20 I mentioned above assuming 20 Str and Charisma, would do a reliable 10d8+35 DPR with +16 to hit. You'd have a 15% chance of critting which would double that.

If you spent a single spell slot smite each attack, it would be 20d8+35
If you spent your 5 biggest spell slots to smite, it would be 35d8+35
If you spent your 5 biggest spell slots to smite, AND used your action surge, you would do a ridiculous 65d8+70 damage in a nova round.

All that is assuming dueling fighting style with 1d8 weapon with no feats or magic weapon. If you stepped up to a greataxe and took GWM and GWF, you'd still have +11 to hit and still have 15% chance of critting.

A regular round would be 5d12+5d8+75. Your nova round would be 10d12+55d8+150 after action surge. Of course assuming you hit everytime but not accounting for potential crits which would add 1d12+6d8 each time.


Of course just to be silly, if you were a Half-Orc and crit every time, you could do a theoretical 30d12+110d8+150 in one round

Mind helping me with some of the math on this one?
Normal round 5 attacks * (1d8 weapon + 1d8 smite at level 11+ strength mod of 5) = 10d8 + 25, right? Am I missing an additional mod somewhere?

Edit: dueling +2 got it

Also + 16 to hit is:
str(5)+prof(6)+cha(5) from sacred weapon, right?
If so, it'd probably be good to include a caveat that the cha mod only applies for 1 min/fight/short rest. Depending on pace of play, it might be misleading to characterize that as "reliable"

Still a monster, just more of a monster with more frequent short rests. But with more frequent short rests, battle master superiority dice really start to add up vs extra crit range.

 

[CTurbo]

Mind helping me with some of the math on this one?
Normal round 5 attacks * (1d8 weapon + 1d8 smite at level 11+ strength mod of 5) = 10d8 + 25, right? Am I missing an additional mod somewhere?

Edit: dueling +2 got it

Also + 16 to hit is:
str(5)+prof(6)+cha(5) from sacred weapon, right?
If so, it'd probably be good to include a caveat that the cha mod only applies for 1 min/fight/short rest. Depending on pace of play, it might be misleading to characterize that as "reliable"

Still a monster, just more of a monster with more frequent short rests. But with more frequent short rests, battle master superiority dice really start to add up vs extra crit range.

Starting at level 11, all of the Paladin's regular attacks get an extra 1d8 from Improved Divine Smite. So a regular Longsword attack one handed would be 2d8+Str. That does not include spending a spell slot to smite. Apparently that feature also adds an extra 1d8 to the smite damage which I did not account for so really it's even a little better than I thought haha.


I agree that most of the time, the Battle Master is better than the Champion's extra crit range, but not when dealing with a Barbarian, Paladin, or Rogue. There are too many juicy damage die to get doubled in those 3 scenarios.

You're right about the Sacred Weapon not being COMPLETELY reliable. Can't argue that.

 

[Glitchezz]

Yes 22 AC from 10+5Dex+7Con. Note: this build COULD use a shield for an AC of 24, but you'd limit yourself to the Dueling Fighting Style instead of the Great Weapon Fighting Style.

This build assume the Great Weapon Master feat which gives you two different ways to get a Bonus action attack. Face it, any character like this with a big two handed weapon is going to take this feat. The Sentinel feat makes it much MUCH easier to get an Attack of Opportunity and is also going to be a top tier feat for a build like this. Note: the Frenzy Barb has a reliable way to get a Bonus Action attack as well as an even easier way to get a Reaction attack, but they come at the cost of exhaustion.

As far as level progression, I would not flip flop back and forth between the two very much. Are you starting this build at level 1? Are you rolling for stats or starting with a standard array or point buy? If your stats suck, Start Fighter and go to level 6 or 8 before flipping to Barb. Fighter gets that extra ASI/Feat option at 6. You absolutely want that second attack before multiclassing for sure. Fighter 6, then Barb 5 would get you the 3rd attack just as quick as Fighter 11. If you start with strong stats, I would probably start with Barb 5 and then jump over to Fighter 5 to get the 3rd attack as quick as possible. Plus, starting Barb is more fun IMO. You'd be tougher for sure. After level 10 or so, it wouldn't make that much difference. I still don't think I would ever take less than 4 levels in a row to keep getting those ASI/feats as fast as possible. Barb5/Fighter11 gets you the 4th attack at level16. I could see going Barb5, Fighter20, and then finishing out as Barb.

I rolled for the stats: 17, 15, 14, 12, 9, 8
Add Half-Orc to the stats for +2 STR and +1 CON...i was actually thinking of going 18 CON and 17 STR and with first ASI boost CON to 20 because this will be a long campaign going to level 40 not 20 so i would get A LOT more HP for leveling up this way.
Going 6 Fighter then 5 Barbarian then going Fighter all the way sounds pretty good. So for this build Polearm master feat is useless because you do way more with 1d12 Greataxe right?

 

[CTurbo]

You'll ultimately end up with the same amount of hit points no matter when you max Con. It is not advantageous to max Con earlier as far as hit points go. In fact, the Tough feat has more of an impact on hit points than taking +2 to Con does. The Tough feat is like taking +4 to Con at once.

If I were you, I would start with 18 or 19 Str and max Str asap, but taking +2 to Con at level 4 and/or 6 would be good too since it boosts your AC once the Barb levels kick in. You could start with heavy armor for the early levels if you start Fighter so your AC will never hurt.

I would not make this a Polearm Master build. The Greataxe is the perfect weapon for you with it's huge 1d12 damage die. You can ask your DM if you use a Greatsword or Maul, would he let you roll an extra 2d6 for crits instead of just 1d6. I don't like how it's only supposed to be an extra 1d6 for those weapons.

Feats I would definitely take for obvious reasons-
Sentinel
GWM
Lucky

Feats I would like to take if possible-
Alert - Kill everything before it even gets a turn.
Mobile - being more mobile and not giving up AoO is great
Tough - this adds an extra 80hp at level 40
Fell Handed - an extra +1 to hit plus other goodies
Orcish Fury - add +1 to Str or Con and then get a conditional reaction attack and the ability to add yet another damage die to damage once per rest.
Orcish Aggression - Move up to your speed as a bonus action anytime you want as long as it's closer to an enemy. Makes you REALLY fast. Combine this with Mage Slayer and never fear a mage again.

Other helpful feats that would be helpful but aren't completely necessary.
Durable - this is strong with a 24 Con. Also add +1 to Con
Savage Attacker - you pretty much already have this with GWF but this is for those times when you reroll a 1 and get another 1. It will happen more than you think.
Athlete - fluff but fits your scheme. Better than +2 Int lol. Also adds +1 to Str or Dex
Brawny - Double your already silly high Str checks. May stack with Bear Totem 6th level ability for ridiculous carry capacity. Pick up a Giant and throw them lol. Also +1 to Str
Mage Slayer - kill the pesky mage enemies easier
Resilient(Wis) - failing Wis saves is probably this character's weakness. In fact, I'd probably rate this higher the more I think about it.

I would start 19 Str, 16 Con, 14 Dex, 12 Wis, 9 Char, and 8 Int. You have 12 ASI/feat options so it'd take you 5 ASIs, and 1 half feat like Durable, Orcish Fury, Brawny, or Athlete to max Str, Con, and Dex which would leave you room for 6 more feats. You just need to figure out the flavor of your character.

I'm also thinking that I would maybe start with Fighter 6, and then take Barb to 20 in order to get that sweet 24Str/Con as fast as possible, and then finish out with Fighter. Getting that final 5th attack would come really late, but I think I'd rather have that awesome Barbarian Capstone more. I would take Champion and start with the GWF style, and then take Archery at Fighter10. You would not have any weaknesses. Note: the Defensive fighting style won't work unarmored. I'd probably go Bear Totem Barb all the way.

This really does sound like the most bad*** melee build ever made haha.

 

[Glitchezz]

You'll ultimately end up with the same amount of hit points no matter when you max Con. It is not advantageous to max Con earlier as far as hit points go. In fact, the Tough feat has more of an impact on hit points than taking +2 to Con does. The Tough feat is like taking +4 to Con at once.

If I were you, I would start with 18 or 19 Str and max Str asap, but taking +2 to Con at level 4 and/or 6 would be good too since it boosts your AC once the Barb levels kick in. You could start with heavy armor for the early levels if you start Fighter so your AC will never hurt.

I would not make this a Polearm Master build. The Greataxe is the perfect weapon for you with it's huge 1d12 damage die. You can ask your DM if you use a Greatsword or Maul, would he let you roll an extra 2d6 for crits instead of just 1d6. I don't like how it's only supposed to be an extra 1d6 for those weapons.

Feats I would definitely take for obvious reasons-
Sentinel
GWM
Lucky

Feats I would like to take if possible-
Alert - Kill everything before it even gets a turn.
Mobile - being more mobile and not giving up AoO is great
Tough - this adds an extra 80hp at level 40
Fell Handed - an extra +1 to hit plus other goodies
Orcish Fury - add +1 to Str or Con and then get a conditional reaction attack and the ability to add yet another damage die to damage once per rest.
Orcish Aggression - Move up to your speed as a bonus action anytime you want as long as it's closer to an enemy. Makes you REALLY fast. Combine this with Mage Slayer and never fear a mage again.

Other helpful feats that would be helpful but aren't completely necessary.
Durable - this is strong with a 24 Con. Also add +1 to Con
Savage Attacker - you pretty much already have this with GWF but this is for those times when you reroll a 1 and get another 1. It will happen more than you think.
Athlete - fluff but fits your scheme. Better than +2 Int lol. Also adds +1 to Str or Dex
Brawny - Double your already silly high Str checks. May stack with Bear Totem 6th level ability for ridiculous carry capacity. Pick up a Giant and throw them lol. Also +1 to Str
Mage Slayer - kill the pesky mage enemies easier
Resilient(Wis) - failing Wis saves is probably this character's weakness. In fact, I'd probably rate this higher the more I think about it.

I would start 19 Str, 16 Con, 14 Dex, 12 Wis, 9 Char, and 8 Int. You have 12 ASI/feat options so it'd take you 5 ASIs, and 1 half feat like Durable, Orcish Fury, Brawny, or Athlete to max Str, Con, and Dex which would leave you room for 6 more feats. You just need to figure out the flavor of your character.

I'm also thinking that I would maybe start with Fighter 6, and then take Barb to 20 in order to get that sweet 24Str/Con as fast as possible, and then finish out with Fighter. Getting that final 5th attack would come really late, but I think I'd rather have that awesome Barbarian Capstone more. I would take Champion and start with the GWF style, and then take Archery at Fighter10. You would not have any weaknesses. Note: the Defensive fighting style won't work unarmored. I'd probably go Bear Totem Barb all the way.

This really does sound like the most bad*** melee build ever made haha.

How would HP be the same at the end? If i start with 18 CON i have +4 on every level plus at level 4 i would boost it up to 20 so i would have +5 for the rest of the game (until Barbarian level 20).
I already talked to DM in another game about 2d6 vs 1d12 and he said crit would be 5d6 or 3d12 if you're Half-Orc.
I'm already planning on going Bear totem Barbarian because i really like that damage reduction for other things. Also i was already going to take those 3 top feats you suggested, i will look into the rest because i haven't checked the unearthed arcana ones.
So start with 19 STR, 16 CON Fighter and at level 4 take some feat for +1 STR and at level 6 take GWM then start and finish Barbarian and return to Fighter?
Oh i also forgot to mention, we have a rule that if you have a shield in hand you have +2AC infront and if you have it on your back you have +2AC from the rear, so i'm gonna have a shield on my back for the whole game and never use it probably just for the extra AC and it doesn't interfere with Unarmored defense.
Is it really better to get that additional +2 STR and CON than getting more ASI/Feats, Extra attacks and another Action surge?
By the way i really like this build of yours if you haven't noticed already

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

I would take 17 levels of monk, 3 of ranger, 7 rogue and the last 13 fighter
Ranger you get hoard breaker, when you attack one creature and have another in range get a free attack, 1 extra attack from monk, 2 extra attack from fighter gives you 4 base attacks and a hoard breaker attack. As a bonus action you can dash, or hide, or interact with a skill from rogue, or make an extra attack as a monk, or spend a ki and make 2 extra attacks as a monk.

Use a shortsword, it’s a monk weapon so deals 1d10 in your hands… yup a finesse d10 weapon for those rogue lovers.
AC would be 10+wis+dex (dex is your prime stat both attack and defense) and you could pick up defensive style for +1 more.

So you always can make 5 short sword attacks dealing d10, in perfect situation with 2 targets and spending a ki point its 7 short sword attacks. When you have advantage or just another allie threatening them you get your 4d6 sneak attack added to one of those attacks… and if you action surge you get 5 more base and another hoard breaker attack…
So you flank 2 monsters with an ally, spend a ki to flurry make 3 attacks against one then 4 against the other…then action surge to 4 into the first target and 1 into the other… grand total is 7d10+4d6 and 5d10 into secondary target…
Now if you want some spell casting fun make the fighter and rogue take eldritch knight and arcane trickster… or if you want to stay martial go battle master and assassin.

Having said that, I wouldn’t go for the power game.
I would have a lot of fun with a 20th level warlock (fey pact of the sword) 8th level wizard (bladesinger) 12th level fighter (eldritch knight)…but I’m a spell caster lover.
Or
I would also love a 15th level Warlock (tomb bound for rituals, and fey still) 15th level druid with 10 levels of Paladin or Ranger

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

so I just saw the stats of

I rolled for the stats: 17, 15, 14, 12, 9, 8

using those I would go wood elf... +2 dex +1 wis
level 1 8 str 17 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 18 Wis 9 cha...

3 ASI for 13th fighter +4 ASI for Monk + 1 ASI for rogue

8 ASI/Feats so you want +2 wis +3 Dex, and I would put +4 COn and +1 cha

3 left for feats...

ending stats: 8 str 20 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 20 Wis 10 cha...

AC 20 naked (but with a 10 cha we want you to keep your cloths on) or 21 if you take defensive fighting style...

I would also take dueling style (both fighter and ranger give you figting styles giving you every hit 1d10+7 damage... and 4d6 sneak attack on one.

So you always can make 5 short sword attacks dealing d10, in perfect situation with 2 targets and spending a ki point its 7 short sword attacks. When you have advantage or just another allie threatening them you get your 4d6 sneak attack added to one of those attacks… and if you action surge you get 5 more base and another hoard breaker attack…
So you flank 2 monsters with an ally, spend a ki to flurry make 3 attacks against one then 4 against the other…then action surge to 4 into the first target and 1 into the other… grand total is 7d10+4d6 and 5d10 into secondary target.

so 7d10+4d6+49 to one target and 5d10+35 to second...

add a +1 or more weapon and this is deadly

 

[Gammadoodler]

I would take 17 levels of monk, 3 of ranger, 7 rogue and the last 13 fighter
Ranger you get hoard breaker, when you attack one creature and have another in range get a free attack, 1 extra attack from monk, 2 extra attack from fighter gives you 4 base attacks and a hoard breaker attack. As a bonus action you can dash, or hide, or interact with a skill from rogue, or make an extra attack as a monk, or spend a ki and make 2 extra attacks as a monk.

Use a shortsword, it’s a monk weapon so deals 1d10 in your hands… yup a finesse d10 weapon for those rogue lovers.
AC would be 10+wis+dex (dex is your prime stat both attack and defense) and you could pick up defensive style for +1 more.

So you always can make 5 short sword attacks dealing d10, in perfect situation with 2 targets and spending a ki point its 7 short sword attacks. When you have advantage or just another allie threatening them you get your 4d6 sneak attack added to one of those attacks… and if you action surge you get 5 more base and another hoard breaker attack…
So you flank 2 monsters with an ally, spend a ki to flurry make 3 attacks against one then 4 against the other…then action surge to 4 into the first target and 1 into the other… grand total is 7d10+4d6 and 5d10 into secondary target…
Now if you want some spell casting fun make the fighter and rogue take eldritch knight and arcane trickster… or if you want to stay martial go battle master and assassin.

Having said that, I wouldn’t go for the power game.
I would have a lot of fun with a 20th level warlock (fey pact of the sword) 8th level wizard (bladesinger) 12th level fighter (eldritch knight)…but I’m a spell caster lover.
Or
I would also love a 15th level Warlock (tomb bound for rituals, and fey still) 15th level druid with 10 levels of Paladin or Ranger

Probably ought to move a few of those levels around.
1. Level 7 rogue is redundant with monk level 7. The only gain is an extra d6 on your sneak attacks.
2. Level 13 fighter is largely redundant with monk level 14. Both let you re-roll saves, but monk lets you use ki, which you'll frequently have a lot of. The fighter level would give you an additional resource to burn but otherwise doesn't add anything
3. Level 18 monk is kinda crazy good. Invisible AND resistant to all damage but force for 1 minute, no concentration, for 4 ki points. So if your enemies don't have enhanced vision, boom, advantage on all your attacks, and disadvantage on all their attacks, and you cut in half almost any damage that gets in. AND you still have 14 ki points left for your other shenanigans.
4. Kind of a dull one, but one more level in any of the classes other than rogue(assuming you took monk 18) would net you an additional ASI. Maybe max con for 40 extra hp and an extra +1 to your saves, maybe throw it somewhere else, ymmv.

Otherwise I like the build. Not sure it's a "melee monster" but it'd exceptionally disruptive.