Help with UpperKrust's CR System (v4)

[maggot]

I have the PDF for UpperKrust's brilliant CR system, and I'm trying to figure out how the giant CRs are calculated. (I'm making my own giants, so I want to start with the know quantities).

Cloud giant for example is listed as 16.815 Total, which I can break down into:

9.35 17HD
2.4 Huge
0.2 Giant: Darkvision
0 Air subtype
0 Move 50'
1.2 Natural AC
0.1 Low-light
0.2 Scent
0.09 Levitate 3/day
0.045 Obscuring Mist 3/day
0.03 Fog Cloud 1/day
0.9 Str 35 (+16 already included in huge size)*
0.7 Dex 13 (-4 already included in huge size)*
0.5 Con 23 (+8 already included in huge size)*
0.2 Int 12
0.6 Wis 16
0.3 Cha 13

* I (reverse) adjusted the stats by size to get the value shown in the PDF.

But I still have some Cloud Giant abilities left over:

Wield Oversized Weapon
Rock Throwing
Rock Catching

The first two feel like a feat each (0.2), and the last which should probably be half a feat (0.1), which would make me 0.5 over. That is exactly the amount of Natural Armor supplied by the Huge size, but the PDF specifically says that the Natural Armor is not included.

Any help?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there maggot!

I have the PDF for UpperKrust's brilliant CR system,

...well I wouldn't exactly call it brilliant.

and I'm trying to figure out how the giant CRs are calculated. (I'm making my own giants, so I want to start with the know quantities).

Cloud giant for example is listed as 16.815 Total, which I can break down into:

9.35 17HD
2.4 Huge
0.2 Giant: Darkvision
0 Air subtype
0 Move 50'
1.2 Natural AC
0.1 Low-light
0.2 Scent
0.09 Levitate 3/day
0.045 Obscuring Mist 3/day
0.03 Fog Cloud 1/day
0.9 Str 35 (+16 already included in huge size)*
0.7 Dex 13 (-4 already included in huge size)*
0.5 Con 23 (+8 already included in huge size)*
0.2 Int 12
0.6 Wis 16
0.3 Cha 13

* I (reverse) adjusted the stats by size to get the value shown in the PDF.

But I still have some Cloud Giant abilities left over:

Wield Oversized Weapon
Rock Throwing
Rock Catching

The first two feel like a feat each (0.2), and the last which should probably be half a feat (0.1), which would make me 0.5 over. That is exactly the amount of Natural Armor supplied by the Huge size, but the PDF specifically says that the Natural Armor is not included.

Any help?

Okay, bear with me, its been a while since I created v.4

Does it mention that ability scores are base 10.5?

ie. Wisdom 16 would equal +0.55, rather than +0.6

Also is Move 50 not a -0.1 penalty for a Huge creature under my auspices? (10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 60, 80, 120 = Colossal)

That would make a deficit of -0.4.

Wield Oversized Weapon = feat (+0.2)
Rock Catching = feat (+0.2)

Throw Rocks = nothing.

Just for the record in v.6 the Cloud Giant would be ECL 14 (no equipment) and CR 9 (official rules CR). I have discovered recently that feats should be worth 1/6th of a CR, rather than 1/5th. Also that PC wealth is responsible for 1/3rd of their CR, rather than 1/5th.

 

[maggot]

Thanks for the reply. I did not know that v6 was available. How does one get that?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi maggot!

Thanks for the reply.

Anytime dude!

I did not know that v6 was available.

Its technically not available, I'm still working on it (though I am sure v5 is floating about somewhere - it can also be seen in Bad Axe Games Grim Tales book).

How does one get that?

I'll probably give it away free on my website at some stage (after its done).

 

[maggot]

Just for the record in v.6 the Cloud Giant would be ECL 14 (no equipment) and CR 9 (official rules CR).

I just read this. Holy cow, CR 9 for a Cloud Giant. I thought CR 11 was a bit low, and was thinking of using v4's CR 14 instead (though that seemed a tad high).

I tried to make a 11th level fighter with PC level equipment that looked anywhere near as dangerous as a cloud giant, and I couldn't. I figured that meant that CR 11 was low. Or perhaps it is because fighters are weak?

I have discovered recently that feats should be worth 1/6th of a CR, rather than 1/5th. Also that PC wealth is responsible for 1/3rd of their CR, rather than 1/5th.

Discovered?

 

[maggot]

I'm having an even worse time with Hill and Storm Giants. According to the v4 pdf, the standard move for huge is 50. It doesn't say what value to base the attributes off, so I use 10.5 as suggested. This means rock catching has to be 0.1 to make the Cloud Giant add up (seems reasonable as rock catching is quite limited). I'm assuming rock throwing isn't worth anything because the giant could just use a bow, and that giants don't pay for their melee attacks because then the cloud giant would be way off:

Hill Giant CR 9.3 (v4 says CR 10.55)
6.6 12HD
1.2 Large
0.2 Giant: Darkvision
0 Move 40' (standard)
0.9 Natural AC
0.1 Low-light
0.65 Str 25 (from 18.5 based on size)
-0.05 Dex 8 (from 8.5 based on size)
0.45 Con 19 (from 14.5 based on size)
-0.45 Int 6
-0.05 Wis 10
-0.35 Cha 7
0.1 Rock Catching


Storm Giant CR 20.855 (v4 says 18.605)
10.45 19HD
2.4 Huge
0.2 Giant: Darkvision
0 Move 50' (standard)
1.2 Natural AC
0.1 Low-light
1 Immune to electricity
0.4 Constant Freedom of Movement (20th)
1.25 Str 39 (from 26.5 based on size)
0.75 Dex 14 (from 6.5 based on size)
0.45 Con 23 (from 18.5 based on size)
0.55 Int 16
0.95 Wis 20
0.45 Cha 15
0.1 Rock Catching
0.045 Call Lightning 1/day (15th)
0.09 Chain Lightning 1/day (15th)
0.21 Control Weather 2/day (15th)
0.06 Levitate 2/day (15th)
0.2 Swim (40)

I'm not including CR values for Water Breathing, the +8 racial on swim, and the take 10 on swim checks abilities because I'm assuming they are in the Swim CR. (And besides, I'm already way over in CR.)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

I just read this. Holy cow, CR 9 for a Cloud Giant. I thought CR 11 was a bit low, and was thinking of using v4's CR 14 instead (though that seemed a tad high).

I tried to make a 11th level fighter with PC level equipment that looked anywhere near as dangerous as a cloud giant, and I couldn't. I figured that meant that CR 11 was low. Or perhaps it is because fighters are weak?

No. The official stance is that Challenge Ratings are determined to give a party of four characters of that level a moderate challenge. Forget that nonsense. The truth is that Challenge Ratings are determined to give that party a tough challenge, not a moderate one...unless the challenge is an NPC of that level.

eg. A Balor is CR 20. But one on one a Balor will make mincemeat out of any 20th-level character unless they are incredibly fortunate.

The reason for this is simple. Theres a flaw in the official rules that says a monsters ECL is different to its CR, but an NPCs ECL and CR are the same. Of course this is illogical.

I solved this flaw by treating ECL as CR. However, in most of my travels the official CR is roughly 2/3rds of the ECL as I see it.

So when I say a Balors ECL is 30* and its CR is 20. I mean that If you want to use it as a moderate encounter treat it as CR 30, but if you want to use it as a tough encounter treat it as CR 20.

*or whatever it worked out as, I can't recall offhand.

Discovered?

Yes. I only claim OMNIPOTENCE, not OMNISCIENCE.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy!

Okay, I could take the easy way out and say that its entirely possible that give I worked out the CRs for every MM and ELH creature that I may have made one or two fractional errors somewhere along the line.

However lets take a look.

I'm having an even worse time with Hill and Storm Giants. According to the v4 pdf, the standard move for huge is 50. It doesn't say what value to base the attributes off, so I use 10.5 as suggested. This means rock catching has to be 0.1 to make the Cloud Giant add up (seems reasonable as rock catching is quite limited). I'm assuming rock throwing isn't worth anything because the giant could just use a bow, and that giants don't pay for their melee attacks because then the cloud giant would be way off:

Hill Giant CR 9.3 (v4 says CR 10.55)
6.6 12HD
1.2 Large
0.2 Giant: Darkvision
0 Move 40' (standard)
0.9 Natural AC
0.1 Low-light
0.65 Str 25 (from 18.5 based on size)
-0.05 Dex 8 (from 8.5 based on size)
0.45 Con 19 (from 14.5 based on size)
-0.45 Int 6
-0.05 Wis 10
-0.35 Cha 7
0.1 Rock Catching

Storm Giant CR 20.855 (v4 says 18.605)
10.45 19HD
2.4 Huge
0.2 Giant: Darkvision
0 Move 50' (standard)
1.2 Natural AC
0.1 Low-light
1 Immune to electricity
0.4 Constant Freedom of Movement (20th)
1.25 Str 39 (from 26.5 based on size)
0.75 Dex 14 (from 6.5 based on size)
0.45 Con 23 (from 18.5 based on size)
0.55 Int 16
0.95 Wis 20
0.45 Cha 15
0.1 Rock Catching
0.045 Call Lightning 1/day (15th)
0.09 Chain Lightning 1/day (15th)
0.21 Control Weather 2/day (15th)
0.06 Levitate 2/day (15th)
0.2 Swim (40)

I'm not including CR values for Water Breathing, the +8 racial on swim, and the take 10 on swim checks abilities because I'm assuming they are in the Swim CR. (And besides, I'm already way over in CR.)

As far as I can see you haven't added their full attack damage (as per section 8, page 6 of v.4).

As for the Hill Giant, size penalties to Dex can oly reduce it to a minimum of 10, so anything below that is a penalty (-0.2 in this case).

With regards the Storm Giant, I can't fathom the discrepancy at the moment.

 

[maggot]

Okay, I could take the easy way out and say that its entirely possible that give I worked out the CRs for every MM and ELH creature that I may have made one or two fractional errors somewhere along the line.

I really appreciate your efforts. In the past I've added up things and they worked out fine (mainly epic stuff), but with the giants I'm getting strange values: some too high, some too low. And not just fractional part CR discrepencies. The Storm Giant is off by 2, which could be the difference between a tough encounter and a hopeless one.

As far as I can see you haven't added their full attack damage (as per section 8, page 6 of v.4).

Actually, that is part of the reason for doing the Hill Giant. It is low, so if I add full attack in, it would probably be close to perfect. But if I add in the full attack for a Cloud Giant, it gets pretty bad. And for for Storm Giant it is out of control.

 

[maggot]

I solved this flaw by treating ECL as CR. However, in most of my travels the official CR is roughly 2/3rds of the ECL as I see it.

So if using Wizards' CR system, should you multiply your CRs by 2/3rds. So a Cloud Giant at 16.815 (14 after silver rule) would be that CR 9 you were talking about?