Help with walls

[keterys]

WoF definitely requires the extra move... but it's totally the exception, not the rule But, yes, if you get a slide 20 off on someone (I think there's a spellscarred that does that), it doesn't matter if the critter is speed 1, 5, or 135, it still slides 20 squares... and each square of WoF counts for 4, and each square of Blade Barrier counts for 1.

Which I'd consider broken, personally, but it doesn't come up that often either

 

[evilbob]

This is indeed a tricky call. The wall is specifically not difficult terrain, but it requires "3 extra squares of movement" to move into it. Forced movement does not count as a "move", as per its definition. So either forced movement also counts as "movement" and therefore you would need 4 squares of "forced movement" to enter the wall, or forced movement does not count as "movement" and is just a total distance that ignores difficult terrain and other effects.

Personally, I would probably also rule that forced movement = movement, since the power's description doesn't use the "difficult terrain" descriptor, and specifically says it costs "extra movement". You have a case for either, though.


As an aside, I have also heard that forced movement into an effect like this would allow a saving throw to fall prone before you were moved in. However, I can't find that in the PHB: am I just missing that, or are people getting that confused with the fact that being pushed off a ledge grants a saving throw?

 

[OchreJelly]

They do get a save. I think it's under the definition of obstacle terrain (possibly in DMG). So it's unlikely even a slide 20 will get more than 1 or 2 wall pushes this way. The wizard in our group was still happy to thunderwave monsters and have them fall prone in front of the WoF to take the adjacent damage on a save.

 

[abyssaldeath]

Hindering Terrain: Forced movement can force
targets into hindering terrain (page 61). Targets
forced into hindering terrain receive a saving throw
immediately before entering the unsafe square they
are forced into. Success leaves the target prone at
the edge of the square before entering the unsafe
square

Here is the Definition of Hindering Terrain

Hindering Terrain: Hindering terrain prevents
movement or damages creatures that enter it.

 

[evilbob]

Ok, you were right, I found it on DMG p44. However, this is interesting: it references "hindering terrain" on page 61. Hindering terrain is defined thusly:

"Hindering terrain prevents movement (or severely punishes it) or damages creatures that enter it, but allows line of sight."

This is odd because Wall of Fire does not fit this definition. In fact, it doesn't fit any definition of terrain, because it damages creatures that enter it, but it does not allow line of sight.

I'm not sure that technically a Wall of Fire does require a save, because it doesn't actually fit the definition of hindering terrain (or any terrain, really). And the chart on page 60 lists it without the line of sight notation, but weren't we told that "text trumps table" this time around?

 

[OchreJelly]

to go even further, do the squares adjacent to the wall count as hindering terrain since they deal damage too? They don't cause damage to enter but they do cause damage if a creature starts their turn there...

 

[evilbob]

HA - that's even funnier, because technically the squares adjacent to the wall do fit the definition of hindering terrain, but the squares in the wall itself do not. How odd. So technically you can't push a creature next to the wall, but if it were already next to the wall you could push it in? (At least, so long as you could push it 4 squares or more? [Maybe?])

Edit: Ah - no wait, I was wrong! Damage does not occur when you enter the squares, only when you start your turn there, so this does not count as hindering terrain, either. (Probably, maybe. )

 

[keterys]

This is indeed a tricky call. The wall is specifically not difficult terrain, but it requires "3 extra squares of movement" to move into it. Forced movement does not count as a "move", as per its definition. So either forced movement also counts as "movement" and therefore you would need 4 squares of "forced movement" to enter the wall, or forced movement does not count as "movement" and is just a total distance that ignores difficult terrain and other effects.

Nothing under forced movement says that it's not movement. It's not 'a move'. It does not provoke opportunity attacks, it does not take a move action, etc. But, it is _movement_ by self-definition

You have a case for either, though.

Well, this is the internet so there's a case for everything, but I don't believe there is any case whatsoever for WoF not costing extra movement. This is backed up further by WotC's own example so...

As an aside, I have also heard that forced movement into an effect like this would allow a saving throw to fall prone before you were moved in. However, I can't find that in the PHB: am I just missing that, or are people getting that confused with the fact that being pushed off a ledge grants a saving throw?

Varies a lot from DM to DM - technically it only applies to ledges and hindering terrain, and power effects are _not_ terrain, but many many people adopt that rule to allow saves on entering effects that resemble hindering terrain strongly (ie, like walls). This does certainly make many things easier, but WotC has chimed in to note that doing so is a houserule and not RAW as powers are not terrain.

 

[evilbob]

These make sense to me; I agree that an effect created by a power shouldn't count as a terrain, and it makes sense that way.

This is backed up further by WotC's own example so...

...WotC has chimed in to note that doing so is a houserule and not RAW as powers are not terrain.

Do you also have links to where more official rulings have been made just for future reference?

 

[keterys]

Not off hand. I just read 'em when other people post 'em. Hmm *glances around*

Lessee, one already mentioned up thread is here
Can you slide a target multiple times (by using a warlock's diabolic grasp or harrowstorm powers) into a wizard's wall of fire for iterative damage?
There are several factors to take into consideration here. First, a target must move into the wall's space—that is, moving into every square of that space does not inflict iterative damage. However, if a target moves into the wall's space, then back out, and then back in again, it will take more damage; but remember, entering each square occupied by the wall costs 3 extra squares of movement (which might be possible with a high-level use of a harrowstorm).

I don't see a reference to the terrain is not a power, but I'm positive I saw a WotC response on that - I'd assume it was a customer service response since I don't see it elsewhere, which makes it slightly less definitive.

Cheers.