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Here Come The PRESTIGE CLASSES! Plus Rune Magic!

Mike Mearls' latest Unearthed Arcana column presents the first ever 5E prestige class: the Rune Scribe! "Prestige classes build on the game’s broad range of basic options to represent specialized options and unique training. The first of those specialized options for fifth edition D&D is the rune scribe—a character who masters ancient sigils that embody the fundamental magic of creation."

It's a 5-level class, and also contains the basic information on how prestige classes work and how to join them - including ability, skill, level, and task-based prerequisites. Find it here.
 

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I reserve my opinion overall for PRCs until I see how one updates a martial class like a champion fighter, or barbarian and allows more complex choices. Spell caster PRCs are easy to add horizontal choices (wider spell selection), but I want the martial side to add more vertical in regards to extra ability to match caster spell selection, versus just a bump up to the same ability.

Otherwise, it would be nice to slide the scale on PRCs to start at 1st level, or higher, by having a way to adjust the requirements.

if they made a weapon based non spell caster as interesting as a 12th level wizard with as many ribbons and buttons, even if I had to wait till 20th level I would jump for joy...
 

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AL DMs get no sympathy from me on this issue. They chose to both participate in AL and DM for it knowing it is organized play. Organized play tries to provide as uniform an experience as possible so that people know what to expect going from on table to another. It is why Gygax switched tune back with AD&D and began telling people that, if they changed certain things about AD&D, then they were not playing AD&D- he was laying the ground work for organized play/RPGA and knew it needed conformity.

As for sharing DMing for the same campaign, again no sympathy to DMs that choose to do it. If a DM and the co-DMs cannot agree, they are better off not doing it. I agreed to try it once back in AD&D. I will never do it again. After one adventure, I told the co-DM to create his own setting and the players to ignore the adventure. SInce then every D&D/rpg group with whom I have played/GM'd has had multiple DMs each switching off to run their own campaign when I need a break. The individual campaigns allow people to play different characters and experience different campaign settings.

Not looking for sympathy. The statement was made, "Don't like an option? Don't use it, but it doesn't harm you if the option is in the game for other tables who do like it". It does though. If I want to DM AL, and have been doing so for more than a year, and then an option comes out that I really dislike, I have no choice. Same with co-DMing. In both scenarios I am being told if I don't like an option I need to not play, because I have no choice but to allow it, even though it's something that never existed when I decided to DM those games. Maybe you don't see that as a harm, but I do, and I think it's pretty rationale to not like being forced to either accept an "option" or else not DM a game I've been DMing for years. These are scenarios where in a very real sense it's not an option at all.


This one I have more sympathy toward. However, the designers are not design experts for individual groups. DMs need to make consider if something will fit in their campaign. If not, don't allow it. If so, the DM needs to be willing to make alterations if something does not work- there are also places on the internet (e.g., ENWorld and RPG.net) to get help.

It's more work - a lot more in some instances. That's a harm from the new material to my game, agreed? I mean, if it's not, I could say "Well you can just create a PRC on your own" if time spent altering material is inconsequential. So, it's a harm from an option existing.

Meh. The designers don't know individual groups. I believe 3e had it right in the DMG when it told DMs they may need to make adjustments to published adventures to account for the people and party make up at their table.

Again, making adjustments is additional work, sometimes a lot of it. And again, I could say the same to you - just make your own PRC rules and adjust adventures to include them. At the point where a PRC is part of an adventure and I have to change it to use the adventure without it, that's not really an option anymore as it has the same effect as a non-optional rule I need to houserule. Any way you look at it, the existence of the option impacts those who don't want to use the option. It's not a matter of simply, "Don't like it, then don't use it, but it doesn't harm you that it exists for those who do like it". There is a harm from it - I have to change stuff to adjust around it. That's a harm.

The Adventurer's League has this handled nicely. Each PC has a story origin that unlocks certain books for use. So there's less room for overlap. If they take a prestige class from Book A they can't take options from Book B or C.

Sure, but the way it works any PC can choose any one book, so if they choose the book with the PRCs, and I don't like PRCs, I can't do anything about it. And if more and more future adventures use PRCs (as I suspect they will) it will become more and more common, and likely the adventures themselves will use PRCs in them, and then I have to decide to I even want to continue DMing AL or do I have to suck it up and be forced to use this "option" I don't like?

DMs don't choose to prohibit options they choose to allow them.

Except all the examples I gave involve having no choice. That's my entire point. I have no choice with AL, or with round-robin DMing, or with having to change material added in Adventures or future splats (and also the opportunity cost of them not publishing something with those pages I do like), or with dealing with the unintended consequences of an option that looked good for my campaign but turned out to not be good for it. The more options WOTC publishes, the greater the cumulative harm to those who don't like those options. So the claim that "Don't like an option, then simply don't use it, it has no impact to you" remains false. It absolutely impacts people who don't like those options, in all the ways I just spelled out.

Now maybe it's worth it. Maybe an option is so helpful, for so many people, that it's worth them creating it anyway. I just don't like the claim that new options don't harm those who don't like them because they can just choose to not use them. It's not a good argument - new options have negative consequences for those who don't like them in a variety of ways.
 
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[MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] other then never adding anything to the game what is the solution... you don't like option A, others don't like B still others C... by your way there is no answer other then "Never put anything else out."
 

Okay so let us never add anything to the game ever again.

See what I did there? I think you are ridiculous trying to prove logically how bad these prestige classes are.

You have arguments but how are they particular to this specific game addition? You can't expect us to take you seriously if your argument can be boiled down to "change is bad".

Dislike PrCs all you like. But be honest about it being a personal preference and stop arguing there are generic objective reasons to not have them (while still having all kinds of other stuff).

You'll thank me later. Cheers

Don't be condescending. A point can easily be made without insulting others.
 

[MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] other then never adding anything to the game what is the solution... you don't like option A, others don't like B still others C... by your way there is no answer other then "Never put anything else out."

Again all I am talking about is the claim that if someone doesn't like an option then there is no harm to them because they can just choose to not use it. There is a harm to those people from new options, as I've spelled out in a lot of detail now. That's my only point here. So for each new option the decision WOTC should be making is "is this option so beneficial to so many who do like it that it outweighs the harm to those number who do not".

I'm just responding to claims there is no cost benefit analysis necessary because they think new options pose no risk of harm to those who don't like them. There is a harm, so it should be part of the analysis. People are not behaving irrationally or spitefully when they say they don't want a new option because it's existence will harm them - they may be absolutely right it will harm their games even if they desire to not use that option, and so I don't think those people's opinions should be dismissed as irrational or spiteful as some have been doing.
 

While they are definitely staying true to the original idea of Prestige Classes, it pretty much precludes anything vaguely Martial for ever being up for consideration, since the "secret society"/"learn from a master of the art"/"you must have this special DM given object to start" doesn't mesh well with the idea of "hey, that guy swings his sword in a different way without magic, why can't I" that seems to dominate the playerbase. I think that people who are worried about Prestige Class proliferation probably have nothing to worry about. As it is, the way multiclassing works with spellcasting in 5e, these options are probably going to end up underpowered for fullcasters if this the way they are heading with things.
 

Again all I am talking about is the claim that if someone doesn't like an option then there is no harm to them because they can just choose to not use it. There is a harm to those people from new options, as I've spelled out in a lot of detail now. That's my only point here. So for each new option the decision WOTC should be making is "is this option so beneficial to so many who do like it that it outweighs the harm to those number who do not".

ok, so lets say there is a harm to X% and Y % enjoy it... now we are just back to the warlord argument... "I don't want it" "I do want it"
 

Fortunately WotC will be producing a survey to gauge reactions to PrCs and this specific one so they'll have some data to indicate how much of the audience dislike PrCs. The surveys of course aren't perfect, but are better than nothing (which is what they currently have).
 

Fortunately WotC will be producing a survey to gauge reactions to PrCs and this specific one so they'll have some data to indicate how much of the audience dislike PrCs. The surveys of course aren't perfect, but are better than nothing (which is what they currently have).

the problem is that the surveys can only tell them what % is X and witch is Y, it can't fix the situation where someone refuses to play if something is included in the game...
 

I enjoyed prestige classes.

No argument there - you are the expert in your own gaming experience, as Robin Laws says.

Everyone who complained about them because of bloat or abuse are simply DMs that had no control over their own games.
I think your opinion overgeneralizes too much here, though. As DM, I've never had a problem with prestige classes - as player, however, and as forum member to here, WotC's Forums, and various other forums, I find it an annoying experience both having other players rattle off a litany of classes that comprise their character in singletons and tuples of levels, and as a player of a character with at most two classes, dedicated in one speciality (stealth, magic, cleric magic, etc) only to have someone with a handful of prestige classes perform better than me at the task I specialized in. When the fighter3/rogue3/assassin7/assassin of the purple lotus4 (hyperbole, true, but i've seen powerful PCs similarly convoluted) is a better melee combatant than the barbarian or the fighter, then to me the concept of multiclassing and prestige classes needs to be reevaluated. They've done well to curtail multiclassing while making it uselful, still, but it makes me scrutinize the reintroduction of PRCs crefully. If you didn't have a problem, I'm glad to hear it worked for your group, but it wasn't just griping DMs, it was players who got tired of hearing about characters with three or four classes being the new normal, instead of someone dedicated to one archetype seeing that pay off.
 

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