"Heroes Aren't Special"?

[Irda Ranger]

Nobody said they didn't rise from obscurity, that can easily be in the character's history. But I think D&D is a game where the players are heroic. That's kind of the basic flavor of the game, in both it's presentation and mechanics. I think there are many players who look for D&D to be the everything game. Some games are just better for simulating an everyday-man experience.

Ever tried Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay? That's an incredible system for playing the average joe just trying to make it in a complete hell. It is an aweful game for playing epic fantasy heroes. D&D is quite the opposite. They set out to make characters heroes, in the cinematic fantasy sense. It's just intrinsic in the design.

Perhaps you are referring solely to 4e? You may wish to be more clear which Edition you are speaking of when you make statements like that.

 

[Mallus]

Perhaps you are referring solely to 4e? You may wish to be more clear which Edition you are speaking of when you make statements like that.

His statements work reasonable well for 1e through 4e.

 

[Ed_Laprade]

Of course the heroes in swords-and-sorcery fiction were special. They were the protagonists and thus had plot protection.


And they had plot protection.


D&D characters need higher stats to compensate for their lack of plot protection. This is a crucial difference between fictional characters and their D&D counterparts.


Nasty, brutish, short.

This.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

In 0D&D, player characters' stats were determined by a simple, organic method. Roll 3d6, and that's your STR. Do it again, that's your INT.

Out of curiosity, what exactly is "organic" about this as compared to any other style of stat generation? If anything, I'd argue that it's the least organic of the methods, based on the first dictionary.com definition that doesn't discuss literal biology.

7. characterized by the systematic arrangement of parts; organized; systematic: elements fitting together into a unified, organic whole.

3d6 down the line is as systematic as the others (in so far as a procedure is systematic, which I'd argue the rolling of dice isn't very), but when it comes together into a unified whole, it's simply on account of chance; sometimes you get a logical result, and sometimes you get a silly one. I mean, nature is full of oddities, but they're oddities strictly because they aren't the expected outcome. 3d6 down the line is, well, a throw of the dice and a prayer.

Right now, I see you saying "organic" where you seem to mean "I like this version;" am I misinterpreting something here?

 

[Shroomy]

Nasty, brutish, short.

They'd be lucky to get to brutish.

 

[Remathilis]

Out of curiosity, what exactly is "organic" about this as compared to any other style of stat generation? If anything, I'd argue that it's the least organic of the methods, based on the first dictionary.com definition that doesn't discuss literal biology.3d6 down the line is as systematic as the others (in so far as a procedure is systematic, which I'd argue the rolling of dice isn't very), but when it comes together into a unified whole, it's simply on account of chance; sometimes you get a logical result, and sometimes you get a silly one. I mean, nature is full of oddities, but they're oddities strictly because they aren't the expected outcome. 3d6 down the line is, well, a throw of the dice and a prayer.

Right now, I see you saying "organic" where you seem to mean "I like this version;" am I misinterpreting something here?

Right. "Organic" means its ok for a PC to have 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 11 for ability scores and work along side 11, 13, 15, 15, 16, 18.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I like dice roll methods for chargen but normally 4d6 and select the order. Now for 4e I did this but I am having second thoughts because your hit rate is fairly low even with a good prime stat. With 3d6 it would be very frustrating for the players as they would never hit anything.
I would not touch the hit point because the characters would not last.

 

[MerricB]

In AD&D, it's suggested that regular normal NPCs should be rolled using averaging dice (2,3,3,4,4,5). 3d6 should be used for henchmen, except for their prime attributes which use an improved method.

So, a general NPC would have stats of 6-15, with 9-12 being very likely indeed (even more than 3d6).

"Scores for high level NPC's must be high - how else could these figures have risen so high?" (AD&D DMG, page 11)

Cheers!

 

[ExploderWizard]

Right. "Organic" means its ok for a PC to have 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 11 for ability scores and work along side 11, 13, 15, 15, 16, 18.

If the game system isn't designed for the 2nd set of stats to overshadow the first in every area of play then there isn't a problem at all. A game system that allows for both sets of stats to exist and rewards the higher set with a " I win at everything" button is on its way to promoting bonus escalation bloat which will consume and devour the character creation process.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I don't get what random rolling, triple HP and Powers have to do with obscurity. In my 4e game the PCs are quite literally scrapping the bottom of the barrel looking for food, are poor, hungry SOBs (some quite literally here too) who are just barely making it by and have the unlucky fate of being in the crosshairs of some nasty individuals.

Nothing about the stats assumes they are already heroic or well known.