Heroes, Heroism, and RPGs

[Whitey]

To Whitey, heroism is the most important thing in D&D. Period.

The game we play is really telling tales of heroism. And then there's some dice, too. Dealing with matters of good and evil, be it small scale or world shaping. Overcoming some challenge or adversity to do the right thing, even if this entails making a prodigious splatter of oneself in the attempt.
On this thread, we seem to have two conflicting definitions of the term.

Heroism: Conspicuous courage or bravery.

Heroism: WIN WITH TEH BIG NUMBAR.

Both of those have scope. Both can factor into any given game. But (busting out the thesaurus here) the former involves gallantry, valor, and nobility. For those Whitey routinely games with - folks who mostly dig into the RP element of RPGs, the character gets the hero 'tag' when they get bold and righteous against things sinister. That's when they win.

 

[Mark]

I think the hobbits were particularly heroic in the LOTR as there heroism was unexpected.

...

I think every character should have a chance to shine in a group. Otherwise, players can feel that their characters have little meaning -- the opposite of feeling that one's character is a hero.

I agree.

Heroism comes in varying degrees but, IMO, is usually highlighted when someone takes what they have and tries to do more than they can be expected to do, with a greater good in mind. This doesn't have to have world shattering consequences. It can be as simple as speaking up when injustice is present. It can be taking what little one has and sharing it with someone who has nothing. Placing oneself in harm's way for the good of another doesn't have to be a physical act.

The most enjoyable games I have played included GMs who made sure to present opportunities for heroism. I make sure to do this when I run or write adventurers. The best games I have run have been when a player has spotted an opportunity for heroism and attempted to be a hero.

 

[Acid_crash]

All of you have good points, but I can see another thing that can cause a Heroic campaign come to a screeching halt. Have a player in the group that just refused to want to be heroic. This way, no matter how hard the DM tries, this player will just screw it up, even if the character is a well played character (put the last part in to basically say that this player isn't purposefully trying to just destory the campaign, just the character is).

 

[William Ronald]

Whitey, as this is the first time I have seen you here at EN World: Welcome to the boards. I tend to agree that heroism is about being willing to place oneself on the line. To quote Shakespeare from Hamlet: "The readiness is all."

Mark: I agree that an act of heroism does not need to have world shattering consequences. Sometimes, an act that saves one life or transforms a community may be enough to inspire others. Sometimes, just taking a stand is enough. Nor does heroism have to involve a physical struggle. A person waging a peaceful protest against a great injustice, IMHO, can be as heroic as any warrior or spellcaster.

Generally, I enjoy games when I feel that I have a chance to portray a character who can be heroic and matter in an adventure. One element to the success of RPGs as well as videogames is the opportunity for someone to feel that their character has conquered the odds and mattered. So, creating opportunities to be heroic is important and something I have seen in several good products, including those from Creative Mountain Games. (Another good product that can emphasize the sense of being a party of a community and making a difference in it is Green Ronin's Testament, where there are rules for how communities function and advice on incorporating characters into a community.)

Acid_crash: I think you have a good point, and the question that arises from it is "Do the DMs and the players have the same vision of the campaign?" Possibly one way to deal with the problem you address is to talk to the player, and give the character opportunities to be a hero. Overtime, the character may become a reluctant hero -- and be embarassed at any accolades. Of course, this would involve working with the player or perhaps trying to contrast his character with the rest of the party. Mark, any suggestions.

Feel free, everyone, to mention any products or adventures that you think really added to the heroism of your campaigns or gave the characters a chance to be heroic. Some of the 1st edition product that I thought that provided ample opportunities for heroism was the old A series adventures against the slavers and the old G-D-Q (Giants, Drow, Queen of the Demonweb pits) that gave the heroes a chance to fight evil on many different levels. The character could move from saving their land to affecting the fate of entire worlds.

 

[Rath Lorien]

I’m working on my “next big campaign” and I’m thinking that this game will explore some of the various aspects of heroism. I know that in frp most people deal with heroism all the time so to have a game explore aspects of heroism is like having a game that explores aspects of “combat” or “goodness”. Maybe it is too general, but I havn't given up on it yet.

It is handy to start with a world that encourages heroism, one that will draw the characters into heroic conflicts, and one that already has components that attempt to portray heroism in different ways. Birthright and Midnight are two campaign settings that spring to mind. These two settings have at least one thing in common: They both emphasize personal special abilities over magic items.

I’ve seen lots of good stuff in this thread but I was particularly intrigued by Bagpuss’ comments about Raise Dead and reapersaurus’ comments about how D&D does not lend itself to heroism. Obviously one can be heroic in D&D, but if I’m going to study heroism then I think I should spend time finding ways to encourage heroic elements of various types in the game.

Does it seems to you that low-level games seem more heroic than high-level games? Playing in a lower-level game I think I feel more human, more vulnerable, more like I’m still making formative choices. At higher level I seem more ‘well defined’. I feel like the choices have already been made and I’m just living up to my already well-established standards.

I’m using Birthright and Midnight (and a lot of material from 7th Sea just because it is so cool). Midnight especially seems like a system just dripping with heroism. The system has Heroic Paths, which gives characters inherent abilities that grow as they gain levels (similar in some ways to the Bloodpowers in Birthright). Midnight also removes Clerics from the picture (no easy raise dead spells) and is a magic-rare setting. and of course, it pits the characters against horrible, oppressive evil. Heroic conflict, Heroic character generation, heroic sacrifice.

So here is a twist on the thread: As a PC, do you prefer to be an ‘Average Joe’ or have ‘Heroic Destiny’? In Midnight (and Birthright), the characters are born with that ‘special something’ that gives them great potential.

You can probably guess that if I use the Heroic Paths concept from Midnight that I’m shooting more for 'Heroic Destiny' rather than 'Average Joe'. However one of the guys in my group (Die Kluge) says that he prefers to play an Average Joe character.

I see nothing wrong with that at all. I don’t mind if the players want to be Average Joes. Maybe that’s the game they want to play. Cool. But let me make my ‘Heroic Destiny’ pitch as well and we’ll see what we end up with.

Some of the questions I'd like to ask in my game: What is heroism? What if you were born to be a hero, how would it shape you? What if you grew up thinking you were a normal guy and then discovered that you were special? How would that change you? What if you grew up thinking you were destined for greatness, but it doesn’t turn out like you thought it would? What would you do? In a magical world where your ancestors determine your potential, what does it mean to be a hero? I think this theme can be explored from the perspective of the Average Joe, but it could also be explored from the perspective of one born with a Heroic Destiny.

 

[Nightfall]

Heroism...is when you have a character willing to use his skills while the bad guys are fighting each other in a massive battle, get the battle staff they've work so hard to find, then have it stolen a THIRD time and they still are willing to go after it.

 

[William Ronald]

Nightfall: A good definition. Heroes often do what many consider to be impossible or difficult.

Rath Lorien: An "Average Joe", or in the Lord of the Rings, an "Average Sam" can be quite heroic. Sometimes what makes a character heroic is discovering their true potential for courage and goodness. Many heroes do not intend to be heroes, but just try to do the right thing.

I would like to recommend two books that can provide insights into heroism and have given me a few ideas over the years. "The Hero with A Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell and "The Golden Bough" by Sir James Frazier. The first looks at heroic archetypes through a variety of cultures, and the second looks at beliefs and practices in several past and relatively recent societies. Both can be mined by DMs and players for many good ideas.

 

[johnsemlak]

I think one thing to remember about D&D style heroism is that now matter how powerful PCs get, (and in D&D PCs get UBER powerful next to the lvl1 commoners), they are just mortal men (or women, dwarves, etc) just like the rest of the population.

It's easy to not be impressed by a level 15-20 fighter that does battle with a powerful demon and wins. It may be that in terms of D&D stats, the PCs victory is not all that heroic.

But try imagining that battle from a simple commoner's perspective. Another human, physically of the same size, and possibly of similar origins, is actually able to take on such creatures. Such powerful beings would easily destroy a whole legion of normal men, but one lone hero is able to take them on.

Of course, we have to design PC stats to give them a real statistical chance of winning such fights. Otherwise, PCs would die far more than would be fun for game play. But I think it's valuble for PCs always to remember that they are humans/demi-humans at their core.

 

[Nightfall]

Nightfall: A good definition. Heroes often do what many consider to be impossible or difficult.

It should be. That's my Hollowfaust group. Best bunch of guys I know. Well four of them anyway. Not sure about Ziz. He never attempted anything like that.

 

[William Ronald]

JohnSemlak: A very good point. Although some heroes may have traces of supernatural blood in them, very few heroes are direct descendants of deities, as Heracles is in Greek mythology. There are some old myths that emphasize that even great heroes are still human, regardless of their heritage. (In the Gilgamesh cycle, the great hero seeks but never attains immortality. He returns and learns to live in the world as a man, a great man, but still a man who must face his own mortality.)

Nightfall: Thanks. Another definition of a hero that is important is someone who helps transforms the world and identifies with others. Most villains are very egocentric, viewing themselves and their desires as what is truly important in the world. Joseph Campbell described villains as failed heroes, who foolishly mistake their own desires for what is of intrinsic value. (Failed heroes also make great villains. As an example, a wise king may gradually grow more tyranical as he seeks to gather more power for himself.)

I did promise to summarize Joseph Campbell's definition of the heroic journey. Here is a somewhat long paragraph from The Hero With a Thousand Faces. (Does this seem reminiscent of quite a few adventure. ):

The mythological hero, setting forrth from his commonday hut or castle, is lured, carried away or else voluntarily proceeds, to the threshold of adventure. There he encounters a shadow presence that gurds the passage. The hero may defeat or conciliate this power and go alive into the kingdom of the dark (brother-battle, dragon-battle; offering, charm), or be slain by the opponent and descend in death (dismemberment, crucificixion). Beyond hte threshold, then, the hero journeys through a world of unfamiliar yet strangely intimate forces, some of which severely threaten him (tests), some of which give magical aid (helpers). When he arrives at the nadir of the mythological round, he undergoes a supreme ordeal and gains his reward. The triumph may be represented as the hero's sexual union with the goddess-mother of the world (sacred marriage), his recognition by the father-creator (father atonement), his own divinization (apotheosis), or again -- if the powers have remained unfriendly to him -- his theft of the boon he came to gain (bride-theft, fire-theft); intrinsically itis an explanation of conscousness and therewith of being (illumination, transfiguartion, freedom). The final work is that of the return. If the powers have blessed the hero, he now sets forth under their protection (emissary); if not, he flees and is pursued (transformation flight, obstacle flight). At the return threshold, the transcendanal powers must remain behind; the hero re-emerges from the kingdom of dread (return, resurrection). The boon that he brings restores the world (elixir).