Heroes, Heroism, and RPGs
- Thread starter William Ronald
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William Ronald
Explorer
Nightfall:
I have seen a few characters and players who might qualify for the "Anti-Bard" prestige class. You know a character must be a horrible singer when banshees complain.
I have seen a few characters and players who might qualify for the "Anti-Bard" prestige class. You know a character must be a horrible singer when banshees complain.
Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
I think the banshees about three miles off complain when Varl plays. At the moment however, the old Hollowfaust group is fractured as the item they tried to retrieve now must be destroyed. and you try figuring out how to destroy a staff filled with negative energy created by a wizard you thought was dead that now wants it back. (And said wizard can decimate armies with just a word.)William Ronald said:Nightfall:
I have seen a few characters and players who might qualify for the "Anti-Bard" prestige class. You know a character must be a horrible singer when banshees complain.
AFGNCAAP
First Post
I have to agree with the general sentiment that deeds makes a hero.
I have encountered players who state that they play "heroes" & "heroic games" in RPGs. In actuality, their so-called "heroes" were nothing more than characters with (questionably) high stats, and whose deeds could be deemed downright villainous rather than heroic.
In essence, these players more or less wanted to be the "star" of their own "movies," so to say--they wanted to be the main character, able to achieve anything, & defeat any foe. More often than not, this often led to "scene stealing," where the characters try to do anything and everything, and as well (if not better) than their fellow party members (in effect, reducing their allies to being merely members of the "supporting cast," if you will).
Said players would often get upset if their attempts ended in failure rather than success (and, more often than not, the players would try to retcon their actions--i.e., after all has been said & rolled, "Well, if I knew that it wouldn't work, I wouldn't have done that.").
I've had these players complain about my style of DMing, stating they prefer to play "heroes" in a "heroic game." However, it seems to me (IMHO) that they fail to understand that it's a characters deeds & actions that make him/her a hero, and not the numerical values on a character sheet, or the high value of a die roll. In essence, it really seems that these players often want & try to "win" every D&D game they play in (and get bonus points along the way). Not "succeed," but "win"--I think that's a key distinction.
And, to a certain degree (IMHO), I think that the more engaging, & thus more rewarding heroes to play are those who aren't head & shoulders above everyone else. What's the fun or thrill in playing a potent demigod who faces off against average foes? Or a warrior who always manages to slay his foes, get the loot, and get the girl (one way or another), without really breaking a sweat? It seems rather repetitve, stale, & static.
I have encountered players who state that they play "heroes" & "heroic games" in RPGs. In actuality, their so-called "heroes" were nothing more than characters with (questionably) high stats, and whose deeds could be deemed downright villainous rather than heroic.
In essence, these players more or less wanted to be the "star" of their own "movies," so to say--they wanted to be the main character, able to achieve anything, & defeat any foe. More often than not, this often led to "scene stealing," where the characters try to do anything and everything, and as well (if not better) than their fellow party members (in effect, reducing their allies to being merely members of the "supporting cast," if you will).
Said players would often get upset if their attempts ended in failure rather than success (and, more often than not, the players would try to retcon their actions--i.e., after all has been said & rolled, "Well, if I knew that it wouldn't work, I wouldn't have done that.").
I've had these players complain about my style of DMing, stating they prefer to play "heroes" in a "heroic game." However, it seems to me (IMHO) that they fail to understand that it's a characters deeds & actions that make him/her a hero, and not the numerical values on a character sheet, or the high value of a die roll. In essence, it really seems that these players often want & try to "win" every D&D game they play in (and get bonus points along the way). Not "succeed," but "win"--I think that's a key distinction.
And, to a certain degree (IMHO), I think that the more engaging, & thus more rewarding heroes to play are those who aren't head & shoulders above everyone else. What's the fun or thrill in playing a potent demigod who faces off against average foes? Or a warrior who always manages to slay his foes, get the loot, and get the girl (one way or another), without really breaking a sweat? It seems rather repetitve, stale, & static.
ThoughtBubble
First Post
AFGNCAAP, your expierences sound a lot like mine.
However, I did make one major mistake. I made it too hard. Doing the right thing, in my game, came with its share of pain. And so I completely crushed any want in my players to try and do the right thing. It was too painful. And, much to my chagrin, when some of my players ran games, they did the same thing.
That's why I've started harping on rewards and relevance. It doesn't matter how many good deeds you do, if it never amounts to anything. If all you mange is to get the Dark Lord to burn down the last bastion of good, then what have you accomplished? Did the choice to fight really matter? Sometimes you'll have strongly motivated characters and players who'll take the blows, and despite how hopeless it looks, they'll press on. Other times, you'll have people who won't be able to take how hopeless it seems when you just can't make a difference.
How do you get past that point? To get me past that point as a player, I have to believe that I can still make a difference, that my choices matter. And finally, I have to trust the DM. As a DM, all my heroes are grown.
Anyway, it sound like your group isn't cut out for the whole heroism thing anyway. If you're still going to try though, I suggest trying a little ego feeding. After their successful victory (gotta start on a good foot, right?), have the villagers throw a party for them, filled with cheering. Maybe next time, they'll be on the lookout for someone to help.
However, I did make one major mistake. I made it too hard. Doing the right thing, in my game, came with its share of pain. And so I completely crushed any want in my players to try and do the right thing. It was too painful. And, much to my chagrin, when some of my players ran games, they did the same thing.
That's why I've started harping on rewards and relevance. It doesn't matter how many good deeds you do, if it never amounts to anything. If all you mange is to get the Dark Lord to burn down the last bastion of good, then what have you accomplished? Did the choice to fight really matter? Sometimes you'll have strongly motivated characters and players who'll take the blows, and despite how hopeless it looks, they'll press on. Other times, you'll have people who won't be able to take how hopeless it seems when you just can't make a difference.
How do you get past that point? To get me past that point as a player, I have to believe that I can still make a difference, that my choices matter. And finally, I have to trust the DM. As a DM, all my heroes are grown.
Anyway, it sound like your group isn't cut out for the whole heroism thing anyway. If you're still going to try though, I suggest trying a little ego feeding. After their successful victory (gotta start on a good foot, right?), have the villagers throw a party for them, filled with cheering. Maybe next time, they'll be on the lookout for someone to help.
William Ronald
Explorer
Thoughtbubble, good suggestions!! I think it is important to give players a sense of victory and a sense that their actions have made a difference. Winning the respect of a community can be an important launching point for future roleplaying interactions and adventures. Also, it helps to give players a sense of belonging and accomplishment.
One thing that I have seen in RPGs are various heroic archetypes. Many have mythic and legendary counterparts. Here are a few examples, but feel free to add to the list or comment.
Heroic Fighters. Beowulf is a good legendary example of this, a warrior who fights fierce monsters.
The Knight: A lot of the inspiration for this comes from Arthurian legends and epics of chivalry like the Song of Roland.
The Barbarian/Wild Man: Enkidu in the Gilgamesh epic fits this role, but Conan also fits this role in many ways.
The Wizard/Wise One/Scholar: Examples include Daedalus from Greek Mythology, Merlin, and characters like Gandalf from the LOTR and Ged from The EarthSea novels. This is a character who uses his intellect or magical forces to accomplish his ends.
Warrior/Wizards: Elric can be considered a character of this type as can Lord Mhoram in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.
The Artful Rogue: In literature, there are many roguish heroes. The Grey Mouser is a prominent example of this.
The Ranger/Wilderness Warrior: Aragorn and Robin Hood come to mind.
Cleric archetypes: These can include various religious figures from the real world, but there seem to be relatively few such figures in fantasy novels. There were priests in the Conan series and Goldmoon in the Dragonlance novels can be considered one example in fantasy literature.
The Bard/Poet: Orpheus, Amergin, Taliesin, Vainomoinen, and various legendary heroes can be considered examples of the poetic archetypal hero.
Monks: The first time I encounterd a monk like character was in a television show -- Kwai Chang Caine in Kung Fu (showing my age.
) There are different legends of monks who display martial prowess and/or mystical powers.
The Anti-Hero: Where some would be heroic, the anti-hero acts in ways that go against commonly accepted standards of heroism or morality. Examples in fantasy literature include Elric and Thomas Covenant. Kullervo, a doomed hero of the Kalevala in the Finnish tradition, could also be viewed as an anti-hero.
One thing that I have seen in RPGs are various heroic archetypes. Many have mythic and legendary counterparts. Here are a few examples, but feel free to add to the list or comment.
Heroic Fighters. Beowulf is a good legendary example of this, a warrior who fights fierce monsters.
The Knight: A lot of the inspiration for this comes from Arthurian legends and epics of chivalry like the Song of Roland.
The Barbarian/Wild Man: Enkidu in the Gilgamesh epic fits this role, but Conan also fits this role in many ways.
The Wizard/Wise One/Scholar: Examples include Daedalus from Greek Mythology, Merlin, and characters like Gandalf from the LOTR and Ged from The EarthSea novels. This is a character who uses his intellect or magical forces to accomplish his ends.
Warrior/Wizards: Elric can be considered a character of this type as can Lord Mhoram in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.
The Artful Rogue: In literature, there are many roguish heroes. The Grey Mouser is a prominent example of this.
The Ranger/Wilderness Warrior: Aragorn and Robin Hood come to mind.
Cleric archetypes: These can include various religious figures from the real world, but there seem to be relatively few such figures in fantasy novels. There were priests in the Conan series and Goldmoon in the Dragonlance novels can be considered one example in fantasy literature.
The Bard/Poet: Orpheus, Amergin, Taliesin, Vainomoinen, and various legendary heroes can be considered examples of the poetic archetypal hero.
Monks: The first time I encounterd a monk like character was in a television show -- Kwai Chang Caine in Kung Fu (showing my age.
) There are different legends of monks who display martial prowess and/or mystical powers.The Anti-Hero: Where some would be heroic, the anti-hero acts in ways that go against commonly accepted standards of heroism or morality. Examples in fantasy literature include Elric and Thomas Covenant. Kullervo, a doomed hero of the Kalevala in the Finnish tradition, could also be viewed as an anti-hero.
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