Heroes, Heroism, and RPGs

[William Ronald]

To me, one of the attractions of role playing games is the chance to portray heroic characters and have them face long odds. The D&D 3.5 and D20 rules support a wide variety of character archetypes. Characters as diverse as Gandalf, Conan, and the Grey Mouser along with many others, in turn, have inspired these archetypes.

What makes a character heroic? How do the current and past rules help or hinder the efforts of players to portray heroic characters? What supplements or adventures have helped showcase characters in your campaign as heroes? What can be done to make a campaign more heroic? Also, what detracts from heroism in a campaign?

Feel free to share your opinions and a few stories.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Heroism has always been a hard quest to go for. Not all people are going to be heroic, and in any situation where there's a good chance of randomness, simply too much of a mind towards survival, tactics or intelligence can kill the feeling of heroism. Unfortunately, I can't really tell you if the rules get in the way.

Things that make heroism difficult:
The first, and foremost is walking. I don't mean the aspect of walking. Walking from place to place is fine. However, there are the situations where I'm spending two sessions trudging through forest, desert, mountians or whatever else. When your only activites are a roll or two on the random monster table, and cutting down some rations, well, I stop feeling heroic. It's too easy to lose sight of what I'm really doing in those situations. Can't see the forest for the trees and all.

Negitive feedback. In the first session of a game I was playing in, the first fight was a story event we couldn't change involving monsters that, if they had seen us, could have destroyed the party in two rounds. The third fight left 3/4 of the group with about 3 points of con apiece. The fourth fight nearly killed a member of the group and inflicted status effects we couldn't cure. After that, we avoided conflict at all costs. By the way, aside from the first fight, this all occurred along a fairly well traveled area. You can be we weren't feeling at all like we were worthwhile. There followed that the only dungeon entrance was barred by a locked door the rogue couldn't open, we ended up spending an hour chopping it down. Inside the party was forced to retreat from animated furnature that nearly killed us. Did I mention not feeling at all worthwhile by this point? Another similar situation happened in a game I heard about. A player shot the lock off of a door, and tried to rush through it. But the door wouldn't open. Why? The latch was still down. In the same game, we spent weeks crossing the desert to find the one town that had civilization to find nothing of worth, not even a plot hook. The game almost died right there. And, just to show some more of the range, how about the game where my archer was in the dungeon of five foot corridors that lead into 20 foot rooms with creatures with piercing risistance. That sucked too.

Cool NPCs. In the above game, we were bombarded by the DM's neat NPC's. The town guard with the magic arrows who made a really impressive shot as we came in. The wizard who was hit by a death arrow for enough damage to kill the party. The cleric who defeated the band of imps that the party couldn't touch and started the darn quest. Heck, add the talking doorknob and the animated suits of armor to the list. Whenever we encountered these things, we just ended up feeling plain and unimportant. "Don't mind us, officer, just a band of level 1 characters here."

Bad parties. In one game, we had a guy who seemed to follow the party around, even though he hated them all and wouldn't hesitate to sell us all out. In another game, we had the guy who complained about every course of action. In another game, we had the loner, captian angst, and a greedy bastard all at the same time. That was also the game with the famous line "You can't just go around being a hero! Being a hero is not a job! Heroing is not a word!" The people playing your game can kill things before they start.

It's easier to be heroic when I have some belief that you'll succeed, and when I believe my actions will be relevant. If I'm just delivering a box, it'll hardly be important.

Choice is an important issue to. If it's somethign that's being done for money, or because 'nothing will happen if I don't' then it doesn't feel nearly as heroic. When the course of action is one that the players decide upon, then it has the potential to feel a lot more heroic.

The most heroic thing I ever did was climb down a rope. Mind you, the ground had just collapsed and two of my party fell with it into the unknown. So I grabbed a rope, tossed it to the strongest member of the party, told him to brace me and climbed down.

Unfortunately, I rolled fairly poorly (a 5) and fell. That was the last heroic thing I did for the next few months. I think the fact that I didn't die from the fall, though I should have, had a lot to do with that. Had I died, it would have meant something. But, as I got back up with 2 hp left and a movement penalty, it hit home that, in essence, we would survive anything, and that we were just sort of being strung along.

Ah well.

But yeah, find people willing to play in a heroic game, reward them for it (early successes without twist or malice). Build them up so they know their strength, or determination, or at least relevance.

 

[Creamsteak]

For me, heroism leans towards BoED description of good, but without following such restrictions. What I mean is, trying to accomplish all the things an Exalted character should do, but also going so far as to being self-sacrificing when necessary.

 

[Bagpuss]

To me the biggest thing against Heroism in D&D is the easy of Raise Dead and like spells. If there isn't any risk involved for the character then they can't really be a hero. If the ultimate sacrifice is just a bump in the road, the character/player is never really risking anything. It's the same if the DM always fudges the rolls to keep PC's alive and the players realise this.

Second biggest problem is the randomness of dice, you might try something incredible heroic and unfortunately that's when your dice fail you and you end up looking a fool.

ThoughtBubble gave examples of both of these with his rope trick.

edit: Why do I only spot spelling mistakes AFTER someone quotes me?

 

[ThoughtBubble]

To me the biggest thing against Heroism in D&D is the easy of Raise Dead and like spells. If there isn't any risk involved for the character then they can't really be a hero. If the ultimate sacrifice is just a bump in the road, the character/player is never really risking anything. Its the same if the DM always fudges the rolls to keep PC's alive and the players realise this.

Agreed. Lack of consiquence destroys the relevance of the choice

Second biggest problem is the randomness of dice, you might try something incredible heroic and unforunately that's when your dice fail you and you end up looking a fool.

Yeah. And come to think of it, action points help with that immensely. Having a few chips you can throw in when something absolutely needs to work is a wonderful thing.

 

[DaveStebbins]

Turning around ThoughtBubble's post, one of the things that can encourage heroism is feedback.

If the PCs do something good and the local town throws a feast/festival in their honor, it encourages heroic acts in the future. If a random nobody in a city recognizes one of the PCs as the hero who saved little Nothingville and offers to buy them a drink and wants to hear the story, and others in the tavern listen in and nod approvingly, it encourages heroic acts in the future.

Lots of little things like that encourage and excite the player, without unduly or unbalancingly rewarding the character.

 

[William Ronald]

In the campaign that I played in for most of the past 21 years, raise dead and resurrection spells did not seem to detract from the heroism. We still had characters make the ultimate sacrifice -- some doing so in situations where there could be no resurrection possible. Sometimes, I think that raise dead and similar spells help deal with the uncertainty issue of a campaign. (There is also some justification for those spells in a fantasy game. I recall reading that a resurrection spell was used in one of Roger Zelazny's novel and I think there are a few other literary references as well. Not to mention mythological and religious references as well.)


I am not criticizing those DMs who limit raise dead and similar spells in their campaign, but it does seem to be ways to deal with arbitrary deaths. Mind you, it is still possible to have meaningful permanent deaths in campaigns. I have willingly sacrificed two characters to achieve a goal in campaign. A voluntary sacrifice means more than just a death due to a bad die roll.

In each case, I decided that trying to revive a character would invalidate their sacrifice on behalf of the party and the world. So, I made it clear that I did not want to have either of my characters revived. I think the DM ruled each time that the party learned that their former colleagues were at peace.

I have played some D20 modern, and I like action points as they provide a mechanic for characters to try to press their limits. I think risk is an essential element of heroism. To quote Shakespeare from Hamlet, "The readiness is all."

DaveStebbins: I like your idea as it also helps tie the characters to the community, and gives the players a sense of accomplishment. Not all rewards for a hero should be monetary. Just having the good will of others is often rewarding, and a great hook for good role playing.

Creamsteak: I generally like the BoED (I am debating whether or not to give a review), but I would argue that in the case of truly vile foes, mercy is not a reasonable or good option for some enemies. Particularly those who are feigning a last minute conversion to good. (As someone who is familiar with history and the beliefs of many historical cultures, I do not find much justification for this rule based on many real world practices.)

To me, heroism is about having a sense of the importance of the world beyond one's self and the willingness to take risks on its behalf. Any more thoughts?

 

[Wormwood]

Second biggest problem is the randomness of dice, you might try something incredible heroic and unfortunately that's when your dice fail you and you end up looking a fool.

Last Wednesday, a 6th level Dwarven Fighter charges two 3rd level clerics of Shar.

One of 'em casts Hold Person...Dwarf rolls a 1.

The other cleric demands that the remaining party members drop their weapons and come along peacefully or they will CdG the Dwarf.

They refuse.

The next round, the Dwarf tries to break the Hold...and incredibly rolls another 1.

So the cleric brains him, killing him instantly. TPK ensues.

Bad rolls hurt. Not knowing the difference between heroism and foolhardiness hurts more.

/sic transit gloria Dromis Ogrebane

 

[Trainz]

1 out of 3 of my games border TPK very closely. Yet, I haven't done a TPK in years (if not a decade). I can't explain with specs how I achieve this, but it happens. And I very rarely fudge.

The outcome of this is that my players feel quite heroic. They know something is out there that will smash them to a pulp, yet they push on. When I prepare my games, I don't make sure that the players will overcome the challenge. Sometimes I base myself on the CR of the books and think "let's see how this will turn out". My players know I do this, so they never take their successes for granted.

A few weeks back, I put a CR 12 scorpion against them (BTW, I think the CR of those beasts should be at least 2 higher). One player was at neg HP's, and the other two where grappled in the critter's pincers. Look at the critter's grapple check, and you will notice there just isn't no way you can escape those.

However, on a subsequent check, I rolled a one, and the player rolled a 20. Following that, he hit the scorpion and killed it. He rushed to the dying player and cured him.

It was great.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

To me, heroism is about having a sense of the importance of the world beyond one's self and the willingness to take risks on its behalf. Any more thoughts?

You caught it. But to repeat myself once more, it's about relevance too. It's about the fact that taking the risk will mean something. It's about the fact that I made the choice, and that, if I had wanted, I could have looked the other way, and left it all behind.

That got me thinking. I think another part of heroism is that sacrifices have to be made for it. Even if it is something as simple as: If you turn back now, you'll live out a long contented life, or you'll get the girl. As long as you leave this one thing unfinished. Being willing to make that decision to give something up is a major part of heroics. The whole idea that you have to part from your life to do it really appeals to me.

So, Trainz, I have a question for you. How often do your players meet people with comperable or greater skill level? Of those, how many are opponents?