D&D 5E (2024) Heroes of the Borderlands

[Azzy]

I don't think the design of the Caves of Chaos is random (despite the name!). But obviously it's not naturalistic.

I also don't see why a dungeon needs to be plausible. White Plume Mountain isn't plausible. Not all RPGing has to be about imagining some plausible or naturalistic setting. And if that's what someone wants, they can just skip KotB, WPM, etc.

This is the same game that people complain that player species are just funny hats, so yeah.

 

[Clint_L]

I don't think the design of the Caves of Chaos is random (despite the name!). But obviously it's not naturalistic.

I also don't see why a dungeon needs to be plausible. White Plume Mountain isn't plausible. Not all RPGing has to be about imagining some plausible or naturalistic setting. And if that's what someone wants, they can just skip KotB, WPM, etc.

I literally just finished redesigning WPM to make it much more plausible in my campaign, and posted the PDF over in "Your Last Adventure in Photos" after someone asked about it.

Plausibility is a matter of taste. Personally, I like things to tmake sense within the parametres of the setting. The vibe I'm getting for Heroes of the Bordelands is that it will offer enough scope to DM's that we can make it what we want.

 

[ECMO3]

It's strange to me. It is like your view of this adventure is so narrow, that you can't imagine someone else playing it differently than how you describe. I am sure, if someone said, "Hey, we were running Rime of the Frostmaiden, but then the players decided they wanted to help destroy Ten Towns because one of the towns was sacrificing people," you wouldn't have a problem with it. They did what their table decided to do. The DM may have presented a different context.

What I describe is a synopsis of the plot as described in the original adventure. It even includes advice on how to get the party to raid the lower caverns first.

Now it is possible some parties used a different method - such as pitting the Orcs against one another or the Goblins and Hobgoblins against the Orcs, to have a more creative way of achieving the slaughter. The adventure details how this could happen too:

"[the PCs] might be able to set tribes to fighting one another, and then the adventurers can take advantage of the weakened state of the feuding humanoids. Be careful to handle this whole thing properly; it isa device you may use to aid players who are few in number but with a high level of playing skill. It will make it too easy if there are many players,"

So why is it so hard to believe that some people played this adventure and didn't just slaughter everything? Why is it so hard to believe that for many tables, they formed factions with one of the groups? Why is it so hard to believe the DM didn't set up one of the groups as really, really, really, evil? (Maybe the intro was that group killing a man and terrorizing his wife.)

Sure, but that is not the plot as presented. Here is a couple sentences from the background to read to the players before they roll up their characters:

"Always the forces of Chaos press upon its borders, seeking to enslave its populace, rape its riches, and steal its treasures ..... Yet, there are always certain exceptional and brave members of humanity, as well as similar individuals among its allies — dwarves, elves, and halflings — who rise above the common level and join battle to stave off the darkness which would other wise overwhelm the land. Bold adventurers from the Realm set off for the Borderlands to seek their fortune. It is these adventurers who, provided they survive the challenge, carry the battle to the enemy. Such adventurers meet the forces of Chaos in a testing ground where only the fittest will return to relate the tale. .... Ahead, up the winding road, atop a sheerwailed mount of stone, looms the great KEEP. Here, at one of civilization’s strongholds between good lands and bad, you will base yourselves and equip for forays against the wicked monsters who lurk in the wilds. Somewhere nearby, amidst the dark forests and tangled fens, are the Caves of Chaos where fell creatures lie in wait"

Also among the DM notes the module details what to do after "the last minion of darkness falls to [the PCs] might" and states that that the courtyard in the caves is littered with skulls.

Why is it so hard to believe that certain DMs set part of the caves up as an evil cult, that if left alone, would eventually kill all the creatures in there - and then the Keep?

It just seems myopic.

It is what it is. My claim was based on the plot in the original module, not how some theoretical group might play it differently than intended. I think that claim is well supported and I stand by it.

 

[ECMO3]

double post

 

[Scott Christian]

What I describe is a synopsis of the plot as described in the original adventure. It even includes advice on how to get the party to raid the lower caverns first.

Now it is possible some parties used a different method - such as pitting the Orcs against one another or the Goblins and Hobgoblins against the Orcs, to have a more creative way of achieving the slaughter. The adventure details how this could happen too:

"[the PCs] might be able to set tribes to fighting one another, and then the adventurers can take advantage of the weakened state of the feuding humanoids. Be careful to handle this whole thing properly; it isa device you may use to aid players who are few in number but with a high level of playing skill. It will make it too easy if there are many players,"




Sure, but that is not the plot as presented. Here is a couple sentences from the background to read to the players before they roll up their characters:

"Always the forces of Chaos press upon its borders, seeking to enslave its populace, rape its riches, and steal its treasures ..... Yet, there are always certain exceptional and brave members of humanity, as well as similar individuals among its allies — dwarves, elves, and halflings — who rise above the common level and join battle to stave off the darkness which would other wise overwhelm the land. Bold adventurers from the Realm set off for the Borderlands to seek their fortune. It is these adventurers who, provided they survive the challenge, carry the battle to the enemy. Such adventurers meet the forces of Chaos in a testing ground where only the fittest will return to relate the tale. .... Ahead, up the winding road, atop a sheerwailed mount of stone, looms the great KEEP. Here, at one of civilization’s strongholds between good lands and bad, you will base yourselves and equip for forays against the wicked monsters who lurk in the wilds. Somewhere nearby, amidst the dark forests and tangled fens, are the Caves of Chaos where fell creatures lie in wait"

Also among the DM notes the module details what to do after "the last minion of darkness falls to [the PCs] might" and states that that the courtyard in the caves is littered with skulls.



It is what it is. My claim was based on the plot in the original module, not how some theoretical group might play it differently than intended. I think that claim is well supported and I stand by it.

Fair enough. I just think that D&D is played by a table of people, and not a linear computer that can't deviate from said word. But your evidence is strong. Thanks for replying and explaining.

 

[mamba]

I don't think the design of the Caves of Chaos is random (despite the name!). But obviously it's not naturalistic.

agreed

I also don't see why a dungeon needs to be plausible. White Plume Mountain isn't plausible.

yep, don’t like funhouse dungeons for much the same reason either

I agree that they do not ‘need to be’, as both adventures demonstrate, I do however believe it would drastically improve them if they were

 

[Stormonu]

I think Gygax liked to pretend that he was realistic, outside Castle Greyhawk (the original "a wizard did it" dungeon).

White Plume Mountain is a fun house dungeon (since it wasn't supposed to be a published dungeon at all, just a bunch of room designs as an audition).

White Plume Mountain probably gets graded less harshly than the Caves of Chaos since it's not even pretending that any of it makes sense.

I do think if Gygax ever came back to Keep on the Borderlands, or made a later attempt to do something similar again, it would look much more like T1, which doesn't have the same issues. (The moathouse has some implausible bits of monsters living next to each other, but it's less egregious than most dungeons of the era.)

There was a "Return to the Keep on the Borderlands" done for the 25th Anniversary. I never ran it myself, so I'm not very familiar with it, but by the table of contents, apparently the Orc caves were abandoned. I'm not sure what other changes were made to the caves and surrounding area.

Which, by the way, reveals that the Castellan of the keep was named Lord Macsen.

 

[THEMNGMNT]

I own Return to the Keep on the Borderlands but have not run it either. I don't think it was much of an improvement on the original. Conceptually, I really like the elegance of KotB but in execution I have a lot of problems with it. Many of the same problems others have noted here. Plus, you know, I'm just sick of long strings of 30'x30' rooms which is unfortunately endemic to adventure design. Hoping this new Starter Set sticks the landing.