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Heroes of the Borderlands

D&D (2024) Heroes of the Borderlands

This is completely and utterly nonsense. There is no such unifying concept.

For example in REH, most of the enemies killed by Conan are human. He can do that without being a terrible person because they are doing bad things, not because they are “creatures of chaos”.

In Moorcock chaos is a philosophy no worse than law. It is not a synonym for “too evil to live”. Both law and chaos are necessary, both are bad when taken to extremes. It’s a prime example of blue and orange morality.

Even in Lovecraft the aliens in At the Mountains of Madness are just like humans, despite their appearance. They vivisect new species because that’s what humans do.

OKAAAAAYYY,.,....

Just because you didn't stumble or read what others read DOES NOT mean it doesn't exist.

IT IS NOT NONSENSE. I expect that you are just making an exclamation instead of a personal insult...though YOU ARE SKIRTING VERY CLOSE TO IT.

Your way is not the ONLY WAY and your understanding is not the ONLY UNDERSTANDING.

I know others play different ways and I've tried to explain it to you and others. IF you don't understand it that's okay, but trying to institute that you are the only true way and others are wrong is beginning to hit me in the wrong way.
 

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No, it’s not an insult to point out that someone had a fairly narrow upbringing. It’s not their fault after all.

It was the 1970s, not the Middle Ages! I was there, I remember them (although I didn’t read the adventure in question until the early 80s). Most people did not believe that there were people who were so irredeemably evil that it was okay to kill their children!

Which part of Goblins were NOT people did you not understand. What part of Grimms Fairytales, The Fairybooks, and Bullfinch's did you NOT understand...or was it NOT PART of your education to even read those (elementary for Grimms, HS for Bullfinch's)?

This is NOT a mystery.

Someone requested specific fairy tales of stories of goblins with children...most of the fairytales don't have goblins with children. The Goblins are more of creatures that go bump in the night and do evil things.

If we get into the children aspect, that would normally have to do more with elves (and not the Tolkien elves that D&D adapted, but the elves of fairy tales) which varied from good and helpful to evil and mischievous. Same with Fairies and such.

With Goblins and Ghouls and even speaking Animals, Normally children were the ones being plagued or killed or harmed by the evil creatures in fairytales.

I don't recall anything in the fairy tales about Goblins with children.
 

So this may be my own "step on a rake moment," but I have to comment on some of the hate for early Caves of Chaos comments. I think it's pretty obvious that I'm not a fan of the "kill the little goblins or other humanoids" parts of the Caves. At the same time, there were a ton of people who played it that way. And the thing is, if you play goblins or other creatures as just being evil, you're not doing badwrongfun. And you're certainly not doing something morally wrong.

One of the shows I've been watching recently is Frieren: Beyond Journey's End. It's a really good show talking about a lot of issues with elves who have lived for over a thousand years. One of the things I find really interesting is how they do demons. Demons are evil, but they also know how humans act and how they have a sense of morality. They use this to their own advantage in one of the plotlines. The sort of "we're all the same underneath, and we should be listened to" is something that comes up in the series as a way to manipulate people. It's a really good show, and it deconstructs some of the things that we've already deconstructed in games and gaming. So it's a double deconstruction or something.

The whole point is: you can play D&D in different ways and have good and evil be just that. And you're neither a good or bad person for doing that.
 



In which of those legends and fairy tales were these chaos monsters presented as sentient mortal creatures that mate and bear noncombatant children to be slaughtered by the heros, as they are in KotB? Where in Tolkien's published works (which you reference) were there caves filled with Orc children huddling next to their mothers? As one of those people who clearly doesn't possess the encyclopedic UNDERSTANDING that you have of the folklore informing this adventure, I look forward to the relevant examples you can provide.

I posted a little above on this.

You ask several questions there, I don't know if I have easy answers for all of them, but I'll attempt to answer them as I can.

As I mentioned above, I don't recall any fairytales where they presented Goblins (or Ogres or Trolls) with Children off the top of my head. There may be a story or two of the Goblin King (I seem to recall one or two may have) having a son or child, but i'd have to go through quite a big of books to find which story it was (The most plentiful source of stories I'd say were the Fairy Books by Andrew Lang, these were normally color coded as things such as the Red Fairy Book, the Blue Fairy Book, the Green Fairy book [and my personal favorite], and many more). Grimms Fairy Tales are normally a little bit more simplistic, but Goblins are generally more from English folklore rather than Germanic or other European stories and legends.

Interestingly enough, it was more the Elves and Fairies themselves which may have had children. Elves were NOT like D&D elves generally, they ranged in size and shape and demeanor. Sometimes they were good and sometimes they were very evil. They were far more likely to be married or have children than other creatures of lore. Goblins could be seen as evil elves (for example, Hobgoblins are more of a non-english goblin in origin, but it's basically a term for a Dark Elf...but NOT how we understand Dark Elves to be in D&D).

Normally, as Goblins were the monsters, anything outside of that wasn't really touched upon. They generally were there to torment or hurt the protagonist of the story. Though generally sentient to talk, torment, and threaten, they didn't have children in Fairytales and Lore as a general rule. It's like asking if a Vampire has Children after it becomes a Vampire. Monsters having children is more of a more recent evolution of ideas.

Which brings us to Tolkien. I suppose the first instance of Goblins in caves would be in The Hobbit. There wasn't really much about any children or anything at all about families in that book with Goblins. Goblins were more of creatures that threatened the protagonists of the story and then rode out to battle against the armies of Men, Elves, and Dwarves.

Later, in LotR and other works we learn about Orcs and Goblins, but most of the earlier publications do not touch upon anything with families or even really their origins. It's not until his son Christopher started doing editing and putting out more papers and such that we find out more about the ideas behind the ecology of the Orc and the Goblin.

Of these, only the Silmarillion probably were early enough to influence anything Arneson and Gygax put out, and even that was probably not too influential. It is far more likely that it was basically just the LotR and the Hobbit which influenced D&D.

In that light, the only thing we could have basis for Goblin babies would be a reference or two in other fairystories about anything dealing with Monsters and their babies and children. That was...as I mentioned before...rare. In some instances, when we do see monster babies they are predecessors of an even greater evil of their parent.

One instance of this that you MAY have heard of (and I am sorry if you have not, I'm really trying to go to what I would think is very general information, but from what I've seen in this thread, what I have supposed was common, and WAS common when I was young, MAY NOT BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE anymore...so I apologize if I am jumping on a guess right now that you may have heard about this one...if not, once again I apologize) is found in the story of Beowulf.

In this story you have a Monster called Grendal that eats men. Beowulf is the hero that defeats this monster...BUT...this monster is but the child of it's mother...which than also Beowulf has to defeat.

The story doesn't paint Grendal as a sympathetic creature, but many of the stories and tales of old didn't paint monsters as such. Many times they were there to teach a moral, encourage others to be good, or to show the epic greatness of a people.

So, hopefully that can answer your questions. To give a much fuller answer would literally take a LOT more, and I've already written quite a bit here. I apologize that to type a more full answer would take such a large amount of space, but hopefully this short answer at least gives a small bit of information that can somewhat answer your question.
 

Depends on the author...but

Just like Undead don't really need food, other things don't either for some.

Others would have it that they do need food (afterall, in this one they do have children which implies other earthly concerns, and though not appropriate for these forums, there is also the way in which Half-Orcs are formed which is not a consensual act in the old days).
I would definitely lean into that personally, have them more as chaosspawns than a real race, something other that just pops into existence whenever and wherever instead of being some kind of animal (need food, breed, ...) but the ship has sailed for orcs and other humanoids, we need something more alien than those these days for it. Arguably it had sailed in the 80s already.
 

For $6.50 + shipping, you can order a POD copy of B1. $9.99 gets you a POD copy of B2.

No for KotB, but for other things on DMsGuild.

So...I'm an old foggie (I really don't feel old, but probably ancient in comparison to some on the forums) who doesn't understand how this actually works.

There are a few things off of DMsguild that I would love to have in print, but they are only offered in PDF. I understand some people get things off of it and then get them printed on LULU or something similar.

I would love for someone to walk me through or give a walkthrough on how I could do that. Take into the effect that I'm probably your grandpa's (or for some, great grandpa's) age and if they aren't tech literate...same would probably apply to me.

But, I WOULD love to be able to print some of the things off of DMsguild into something better than what I get when printing it off of my printer and spiral binding it at home.
 

OKAAAAAYYY,.,....

Just because you didn't stumble or read what others read DOES NOT mean it doesn't exist.

IT IS NOT NONSENSE. I expect that you are just making an exclamation instead of a personal insult...though YOU ARE SKIRTING VERY CLOSE TO IT.

Your way is not the ONLY WAY and your understanding is not the ONLY UNDERSTANDING.

I know others play different ways and I've tried to explain it to you and others. IF you don't understand it that's okay, but trying to institute that you are the only true way and others are wrong is beginning to hit me in the wrong way.
Calm down, and stop shouting at people, please. This is not that important.

[Edit and no, that doesn't mean go back 12 pages to find a post to report in some kind of petty revenge. Grow up.]
 
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