D&D (2024) Heroes of the Borderlands

[Parmandur]

Hmm, I'm not sure I can see Venger or the Red Wizards as cultists of "Evil Chaos", and I'm not sure why that would need to be changed as the ultimate source of antagonism in the adventure. Maybe as part of a larger arc involving Venger and/or the Red Wizards' ambition to gain control over the Realm?

Ah, yeah, sorry for the lack of clarity in my ramble: they had teased last year that they had two story things in the pipeline for after the Core, one of which would involve the Red Wizards and the other would involve. So now we are getting a Forgotten Realms Adventure Guise for DMs which will probsvly be what theybwere alluding to with the Red Wizards...and then this Starter Set which is in theFall storyline release slot. That seems to me where theyvwere thinking about Venger, who is also on the DMG cover and Perkins has been talking him up as a BBEG at GenCon.

For Quests from the Infinite Staircase, the same designer leading this project basically rewrote Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, rearranging everything smd adding an entire new BBEG to drive the action of the module. I expect we could see the same here, and who better to be manipulating a Cult of Chaos than a literal Saturday Morning Cartoon villain in a ridiculous costume...?

 

[Remathilis]

yes, if you played that long, sure. Most people have played a lot less however and some might even be new to it, who knows

I would want them to feel alien for new players again, not just like humans with blue skin or whatever.


the hero is not the bad guy, even if they have tusks or horns

50 years in the collective zeitgeist though has done a huge amount of that work though. I wager most people's perceptions of orcs and goblins come from Warcraft than Tolkien at this time.

As a better non-gaming example, the evolution of vampires from feral corpse creatures to suave amoral aristocrats to anguished heart-throbs is a great example of demystifying a creature through exposure. There is nobody today who can view vampires as mysterious forces anymore, so much so that anyone who tries has to avoid the V word to avoid unwanted association.

I mean, you can dislike it all you want, but the writing was on the wall. Drizzt clones, the Horde, BG3 NPCs. I kinda think only Tolkien races are getting played out.

 

[Oofta]

50 years in the collective zeitgeist though has done a huge amount of that work though. I wager most people's perceptions of orcs and goblins come from Warcraft than Tolkien at this time.

As a better non-gaming example, the evolution of vampires from feral corpse creatures to suave amoral aristocrats to anguished heart-throbs is a great example of demystifying a creature through exposure. There is nobody today who can view vampires as mysterious forces anymore, so much so that anyone who tries has to avoid the V word to avoid unwanted association.

I mean, you can dislike it all you want, but the writing was on the wall. Drizzt clones, the Horde, BG3 NPCs. I kinda think only Tolkien races are getting played out.

The issue I see (if it's really an issue at all) is that people identify with the monsters, the outsiders, the outcasts because they also feel like an outsider and outcast. But then ... gradually others want to make the outsider and outcast feel welcome and over time the monsters are no longer monsters. But that means the monsters are also no longer outsiders or outcasts. Which means the people that originally identified with them no longer have outsiders and outcasts to identify with. So the cycle continues and people who feel like outsiders and outcasts no longer have any monsters to identify with.

It's the same way that we're not going to have half-elves or half-orcs any more. Yes, there were certain issues with them, but the game loses a bit if we don't have that archetype of races that don't feel like they really belong. Obviously we can role play that but it just doesn't have the same feel to me.

In any case, it doesn't really affect my game, and this is just random rambling and observation not really a complaint. Vampires will still be blood sucking undead parasites in my world, werewolves will still be blind and vicious raging embodiments of chaos and murder. There will still be plenty of monsters in my world even if many, if not most, are human.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Ah, yeah, sorry for the lack of clarity in my ramble: they had teased last year that they had two story things in the pipeline for after the Core, one of which would involve the Red Wizards and the other would involve. So now we are getting a Forgotten Realms Adventure Guise for DMs which will probsvly be what theybwere alluding to with the Red Wizards...

It's interesting then that Thay is not one of the regions covered in that book. I guess it's just too spicy for them to go into detail at the moment, even compared to Calimshan. Perhaps the stuff not explicity part of the "setting guide" stuff will actually be a series of short Red Wizard based adventures, one taking place in each region, which can be strung together into an actual mini-campaign?

(If so, this format could be used to cover other groups FR regions as well in future books, if this one is a success. There are plenty of other archetypal regions in the setting that, grouped, could support such a book: Cormyr as a "high fantasy kingdom", Amn as "shifty merchant republic", Lantan as "steampunk land", maybe even a return to Chult (with a sensitivity run-through they missed last time) as "Lost World jungle", and maybe, just maybe, we'll see Mulhorand's "fantasy Egypt").

 

[Parmandur]

It's interesting then that Thay is not one of the regions covered in that book. I guess it's just too spicy for them to go into detail at the moment, even compared to Calimshan. Perhaps the stuff not explicity part of the "setting guide" stuff will actually be a series of short Red Wizard based adventures, one taking place in each region, which can be strung together into an actual mini-campaign?

(If so, this format could be used to cover other groups FR regions as well in future books, if this one is a success. There are plenty of other archetypal regions in the setting that, grouped, could support such a book: Cormyr as a "high fantasy kingdom", Amn as "shifty merchant republic", Lantan as "steampunk land", maybe even a return to Chult (with a sensitivity run-through they missed last time) as "Lost World jungle", and maybe, just maybe, we'll see Mulhorand's "fantasy Egypt").

That would make sense! We know that PC Red Wizards are a thing in the Player's Guide, but probavly not Tamian loyalists, so acampaogn contra Szass Tam feels about right to show off what makes the FR, Forgotten Realms.

 

[mamba]

50 years in the collective zeitgeist though has done a huge amount of that work though. I wager most people's perceptions of orcs and goblins come from Warcraft than Tolkien at this time.

yes, you would have to not make them the Warcraft orcs, they do not become alien and unknown otherwise, but I would not mind a reimagining in that vein, I'd rather have that than the native tribe orcs of the 2024 PHB

 

[Micah Sweet]

yes, you would have to not make them the Warcraft orcs, they do not become alien and unknown otherwise, but I would not mind a reimagining in that vein, I'd rather have that that the native tribe orcs of the 2024 PHB

Personally my favorites are 40k orks.

 

[mamba]

Personally my favorites are 40k orks.

ha, their fungal spore reproduction would work well for my 'chaosspawns' appoach from earlier

I would definitely lean into that personally, have them more as chaosspawns than a real race, something other that just pops into existence whenever and wherever instead of being some kind of animal (need food, breed, ...)

Yes, make them more menacing, more alien, more other, instead of them just being humans with an unhealthy skin color

 

[Remathilis]

yes, you would have to not make them the Warcraft orcs, they do not become alien and unknown otherwise, but I would not mind a reimagining in that vein, I'd rather have that than the native tribe orcs of the 2024 PHB

I mean, there are only so many ways you can reimagine them before they stop even resembling the concept of orcs. You eventually end up with either the living weapon orc or the proud warrior race.

Our Orcs Are Different - TV Tropes

Orcs. Ever since Tolkien, the worlds of fantasy literature and video games have been overrun with gangs of these ugly, bellicose humanoids, whose main purpose in life is to serve as Mooks for the Forces of Evil. Trolls, goblins and/or hobgoblins …

tvtropes.org

 

[mamba]

I mean, there are only so many ways you can reimagine them before they stop even resembling the concept of orcs. You eventually end up with either the living weapon orc or the proud warrior race.

I am not beholden to the name or concept of orcs, orc is mostly a common CR 1/2 stat block. If orcs cannot be alien enough any more, then replace them with something that can. The goal is to reintroduce something alien and 'scary' into the game, orc or otherwise, instead of everything just being friendly humanoid races in the valley of sunshine and rainbows.