HeroLab

[kingpaul]

So if a tool were missing, say, one template out of dozens, your definition would be that the tool "doesn't support templates"?

Let me try and lay this out more logically.

My first statement you quoted was "From reading their boards...". I skim the boards, and from what I had read, I was under the impression that templates were not supported.

When I responded to your quote, I was trying to show that you had quoted a dated post, and that from the news briefs, templates were inserted over 2 updates, the 2nd coming after my initial post.

So, no, I would not say that its all or nothing. I honestly thought it wasn't there yet.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

How is the licensing system "nasty"? It took me less than a minute to get the product activated. And, unlike lots of other software products I regularly use, they were nice enough to include a free second license to put the product on TWO computers. So I put it on my home computer and my laptop. If I want to put it on a third computer, it will cost me a whole $10 for a third license. [I've been thinking about doing this to have a copy at work to play with at lunch.]

Also, you do NOT have to have internet access on the computer where you want to use the product. I thought I saw something about it within the product, so I just double-checked. They have what they call "manual" license activation. Basically, you can use a webpage to activate the license from one computer and copy a keyfile over to a non-internet computer to activate it.

So is your complaint effectively that you want the product to be free? If so, then use one of the free tools that are available. You'll get what you pay for. I prefer something of high quality from a company that will stand behind it. That entails that I actually part with a few dollars. I don't know about you guys, but I'm used to spending $60 on computer games nowadays and hundreds of dollars on other software I use regularly. I spend a LOT on RPG gaming stuff every year. So I don't mind spending a whole $30 for a well-written piece of software that will be highly useful on an ongoing basis.

Maybe it's just me, but the time I spend wrestling with a tool is time I've lost. That time has a value. For $30, if Hero Lab saves me an hour over a free tool, I'm ahead of the game. Even if that hour of savings comes in 5-minute chunks of time, it's still a win for me.

Having been an Army Builder user for a long-time, I also don't find the $13 per year that they charge unreasonable. It's no different than spending $40 every three years to buy a major new upgrade to the product. Since it's the same amount of money to me, I really don't care. And if it keeps the company in business and making great software products that I can really USE, everybody wins!

No, the company loses! They have lost sales with their licensing, and I rather hope that the lose more. (Eight sales at least, just from my group alone, these are the folks who use computers in their character generation.) This is having the same effect, at least locally, as DRM protection on PDFs. The reaction is not 'cool, a great system!' it is 'Wow, that sounds cool, I wish it didn't have DRM, then I would buy it!' Your guess as to which is better.

I used Army Builder 2, as did everyone in my Mordheim group - my WARMACHINE group uses Armies of Immoren, a very nice, free, army builder for WARMACHINE and Hordes. None of us in my groups switched to Army Builder 3, any guesses as to why?

It is nasty because not every computer is hooked to the internet - laptops in particular. And laptops are what are most likely to appear at a games table. It is nasty because people do not want to jump through hoops to use software they have purchased. It is nasty because if your hard drive crashes you need to jump through the hoops again just to use software that you have purchased. As for 'no different than a 'major upgrade every three or four years' I can name one major difference - this is on top of 'upgrading' from Army Builder 2 to Army Builder 3. We do not know yet if they will have another upgrade, but that is what I am betting on. [Sarcasm]Yay! Lone Wolf![/Sarcasm]

I do not mind CD Keys, I do not mind needing a serial number to activate the program, but I do not want to have to jump through hoops to use software that I have purchased, and do so for every computer that I want to use it on.

They can go hang. If this is what you think is great merchandising then I beg to differ. And for the record - I have no pirated software on my computer, no pirated movies, not so much as a pirated MP3. So the one thing I can say about their choice of DRM is that it has kept at least one non-pirate away. Not the best way to stay in business.

The Auld Grump

 

[2WS-Steve]

It didn't feel like jumping through hoops to me.

I downloaded the software, put in the code, then it connected to the internet to activate and check for updates.

Since I needed to be connected to the internet anyway to download the software and get the email with the key, that extra step hardly seemed difficult.

After that, I don't need to be connected to the internet unless I want to get an update -- but, I'd need to be connected to the internet to get an update no matter what, so that's not an issue.

I've been waiting a long time for a Mutants & Masterminds and World of Darkness chargen -- and I don't think it's an accident that Hero Lab managed to finally get them to come to the table.

I wouldn't be surprised if lack of DRM was one of the big reasons that WotC let the CMP license drop. It doesn't take a genius or even a dark heart to suspect that many gaming groups were buying one copy of a dataset then splitting the cost and sharing.

 

[TheYeti1775]

I wouldn't be surprised if lack of DRM was one of the big reasons that WotC let the CMP license drop. It doesn't take a genius or even a dark heart to suspect that many gaming groups were buying one copy of a dataset then splitting the cost and sharing.

Wouldn't suprise me either.

But to counter your arguement, the same could be said of the groups that make 'group' purchases of books. Single copies for the group to share.

Yeti

 

[Mercule]

I'll have to say that the licensing sounds a bit... off to me. I don't really mind a single dial-in for my apps, but I got the impression that it was a bit more than that.

My general attitude is that Internet apps require the Internet. Non-Internet apps that require access to the Internet are coding by <insert grandma-unfriendly term here>. No two ways about it. If the product is high enough quality (like some MS products), then I'll bite the bullet and deal with it. It doesn't make the DRM any more right, but that factor can sometimes be overcome.

Short form, requiring online registration is an insult. That insult affects my purchasing decisions. I'll check out HeroLab to see if it's in the rare category of product that's worth being insulted to use.

Here's a question that would kill any interest w/o worrying about the DRM: If I add a "dataset" for homebrew or published rules, can I easily export that dataset and give it to my players? If not, the app is a non-starter for me.

 

[2WS-Steve]

But to counter your arguement, the same could be said of the groups that make 'group' purchases of books. Single copies for the group to share.

Sharing the book, though, is legal. Also, there's decreased utility in sharing the book, whereas "sharing" a file isn't really sharing at all -- it's making a copy and distributing it, like photocopying a book and giving that to your friends.

However, you could truly share an app like Hero Lab by lending someone your laptop, and that would be fine.

Here's a question that would kill any interest w/o worrying about the DRM: If I add a "dataset" for homebrew or published rules, can I easily export that dataset and give it to my players? If not, the app is a non-starter for me.

The dataset is stored as an XML file or set of files and these can be popped around easily -- also a nice way to create a set of files for a particular campaign.

However, the data input is pretty monstrous, IMO even more complex than PCGEN or Metacreator.

Here's how a simple bonus (unintuitively called an Eval Script) looks in Hero Lab:

      container.childopt[kBalance].field[Bonus].value = container.childopt[kBalance].field[Bonus].value + 4
      container.childopt[kJump].field[Bonus].value = container.childopt[kJump].field[Bonus].value + 4
      container.childopt[kSwim].field[Bonus].value = container.childopt[kSwim].field[Bonus].value + 4

-- and there's something wrong with the above that's giving me a compile error, even though I copied it from some other race ability and just made a couple changes.

I think Hero Lab will be better for M&M or WoD, where I don't plan to do much customization. -- but in d20, where I have a lot of custom data I'd like to add, it's still a ways off from being useful.

 

[Mercule]

However, the data input is pretty monstrous, IMO even more complex than PCGEN or Metacreator.

Igh. One of the big reasons I'd go to something other than PCGen is easier data input -- preferrably through a GUI. I already understand .lst files. The other big reason would be that PCGen abuses the memory on my poor, poor laptop and runs poopy.

So, crappy licensing, crappy customizations, (currently) no initiative tracker, no existing datasets. Just faster. Mmmm.... passing.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

It didn't feel like jumping through hoops to me.

I downloaded the software, put in the code, then it connected to the internet to activate and check for updates.

Since I needed to be connected to the internet anyway to download the software and get the email with the key, that extra step hardly seemed difficult.

After that, I don't need to be connected to the internet unless I want to get an update -- but, I'd need to be connected to the internet to get an update no matter what, so that's not an issue.

I've been waiting a long time for a Mutants & Masterminds and World of Darkness chargen -- and I don't think it's an accident that Hero Lab managed to finally get them to come to the table.

I wouldn't be surprised if lack of DRM was one of the big reasons that WotC let the CMP license drop. It doesn't take a genius or even a dark heart to suspect that many gaming groups were buying one copy of a dataset then splitting the cost and sharing.

An example - my old job had a great printer. I would take my PDFs, print them at work, and drop the money for the printing into the jar on top of the computer.

I could not do that with the DRM protected PDFs, the computer at work did not have internet access, and last I heard still does not. For the same reason I could not use DRM protected PDFs I could not use Hero Labs.

Lone Wolf is also intending to sell this on CD. All it takes is one person to buy the CD and discover after purchase that they cannot use the program they have just paid good money for.They are left dangling in the breeze, if they did not buy the CD at a con they might be able to get a refund, or they might have to get the refund in store credit.

I would rather that the publishers be the ones dangling in the breeze, the ropes creaking under the weight of hanged men.... (Okay, so I am exaggerating a wee bit there...)

The Auld Grump

 

[labyrinth]

However, the data input is pretty monstrous, IMO even more complex than PCGEN or Metacreator.

Wow! That's not been my experience at all with the product. Since almost everything is handled through NON-script mechanisms, and the longest script I've had to write was maybe 10 lines, I've had no problems.

Most scripts I write amount to applying an adjustment to a skill, an attack bonus, or a defensive bonus. So they end up being of the form "x = x + 2". That's exactly what your code consists of. When I need to, I can easily include "if/then" blocks and "for/next" loops. Without context, the script code you posted looks strange, but it is nothing more than "x = x + 4". I had probably added more than a dozen new feats before I took a few minutes to read the documentation and figure out what the whole "container.blah.blah" stuff actually meant. And I've only needed to know what it means a couple of times when I wanted to do something non-standard. Otherwise, I've just copied an existing entry, made a few changes, and had it working.

Here's how a simple bonus (unintuitively called an Eval Script) looks in Hero Lab:

With regard to the naming, they used incredibly generic terms for some stuff, which I agree required a little bit of extra thinking. However, after giving it some thought, that seemed reasonable to me, because the same mechanisms have to apply to ANY game system - not just D&D. When support for Vampire comes out, it won't work to have everything wired around D&D terminology.

-- and there's something wrong with the above that's giving me a compile error, even though I copied it from some other race ability and just made a couple changes.

The code looks valid to me. What was the error message?

I think Hero Lab will be better for M&M or WoD, where I don't plan to do much customization. -- but in d20, where I have a lot of custom data I'd like to add, it's still a ways off from being useful.

My group has added a whole bunch of stuff to Hero Lab. And we haven't found it difficult at all, except for the few things we've tried to do that weren't exposed yet. But those things have since been added and we've got them working. What stuff were you trying to add?

 

[labyrinth]

Igh. One of the big reasons I'd go to something other than PCGen is easier data input -- preferrably through a GUI. I already understand .lst files. The other big reason would be that PCGen abuses the memory on my poor, poor laptop and runs poopy.

Apparently, my experience and Steve's have been a good bit different from each other. Based on my experience, I think Hero Lab is a vast improvement on both of the above counts. Since the demo is free and lets you fully utilize the editor, it's probably worth making your own assessment.