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Herores of the Fallen Lands - Are Slayers underpowered?

Precisely.

I've seen a 20 Str first level Slayer at my gaming table.

And, I've seen a 20 Dex first level Thief at my gaming table.

It's not as much theorycraft as you claim, course, that's because it doesn't match your anecdotal experience
Oh, really?

I've also seen 20 Dex Thieves and 20 Strength Slayers at my table (and some non-20s) and there isn't a whole lot of difference. The part about your argument that doesn't match my anecdotal experience is the part where they're somehow broken, OP/UP whatever you want to jigger the stats to illustrate.

All your DPR claims are pure theorycraft and have nothing to do with an actual game. Sure, they can tell you something about a class, but not everything. Not the whole story. Not even everything about strikers.

Both classes play fine, feel balanced in play and fill specific niches.

There is nothing that suggests to me that Essentials strikers are any more likely to reach high level than any other class either, so I don't know where you're getting that one from. That must be something from your anecdotal experience.
 

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Both classes play fine, feel balanced in play and fill specific niches.

Yes. The bigger, badder, better niche of the new 4E. Rogue-level damage without the Rogue limitation of having to acquire CA. And soon coming to a game near you (via feats or items), Rogues and Thieves figuring out a way to get CA and OAs outside their turn a lot, so that they can do Sneak Attack damage 2 or more times per turn, almost every turn. Woo hoo!

Course, that's the same niche as every splat book that comes out. It just keeps growing though and because it is gradual power creep, people think "oh, it feels balanced". :lol:

For example, Arc Lightning is a huge boost in versatility for those Wizards interested in hitting multiple foes per round. But, no worries. It's balanced. ;)
 

Playing a Thief, I get to throw my dagger from behind the melee PCs. IME so far this means I can put nearly all resources into maxing out damage, while the melee Striker PC (a Ranger in my group) needs to put resources into defense too, or suffer horribly. And he'll still be running much bigger risks; 90% of the time in combat it's the melee PCs who go down, not the ranged guys at the rear. I've seen the same thing GMing 4e over 17 sessions/6 levels. For this reason I don't think comparing Ranged Striker DPR to melee Striker DPR is reasonable, but comparing the DPR of two Ranged Strikers (Thief throwing dagger vs archer Ranger) or two melee Strikers (Slayer vs melee Ranger) is ok.
 

Cool concept. Costs a feat, but it could be worth it.
No, i was thinking about a more conservative 18/16 human with expertise and weapon focus... there are several ways to get those numbers. But i really forgot to take backstab into account which lets the thief come slightly ahead of the slayer and maybe even the warlock.

But i will still imply 95% hit chance because this is when you should do your nova. A single hit of the cleric with righteous brand will increase an 80% hit chance to 95% which is a good indicator for when to start your nova...

All of those example i gave didn´t even really try to optimize heavily... if i take furious assault into account as an orc, heroic effort as a human or a good at will i can take with either half elf or human instead of heroic effort and soon you see those numbers start beeing comparable.

And just as a reminder: daze and prone are two conditions that may make a thief´s life hard and reduce his damage output considerably. Out of turn attacks from thief´s even if you theoretically can get sneak attack often don´t because the condition that allowed you to gain CA does not apply anymore if you did not get it by good old flanking.
This is something neglected in DPR. Not that you get out of turn attacks very often, but the possibility hinders enemies choices a lot...
 

No, i was thinking about a more conservative 18/16 human with expertise and weapon focus... there are several ways to get those numbers. But i really forgot to take backstab into account which lets the thief come slightly ahead of the slayer and maybe even the warlock.

But i will still imply 95% hit chance because this is when you should do your nova. A single hit of the cleric with righteous brand will increase an 80% hit chance to 95% which is a good indicator for when to start your nova...

While that's true, very few Leaders have At Will +3 bonuses to hit. For example, a Lazer Cleric only has +2.

And, the AC of most foes that a player wants to use a Nova against will tend to be higher than the AC 15 of a same level foe.

A heavily optimized to hit Slayer can get up to 95% for a Nova round if allies help, but that might be a bit more rare than you are assuming. Especially if the Slayer starts at Str 18 as per what you just wrote here.

Not all Slayers will have Poised Assault. Not all foes will be same level. Not all Leaders or allies will be able to help. The Slayer PC will not be able to wait until the Leader gives him a bonus, he'll be in situations where he has to Nova now (like when he has 10 hit points).

Your assumption of 95% chance to hit in a Nova round is overly generous. More like the exception than the rule.


The difference between the Thief and some other Strikers is that the Thief comes to the table with the super to hit bonuses already available to him (the Avenger is this way as well, as is the Warlock if he uses Gift to Avernus a lot).

The Thief often does not need another PC to give him flank or give him a power bonus to hit.

He can be the last man standing in a fight and still do awesome damage (this happened to me just last Sunday, all PCs unconscious, my PC with 6 hit points vs. a Dragon and his 2 remaining allies, I wasn't playing a Thief, but I did manage to win the fight).

The Rogue in a last man standing scenario is usually hurting. He can knock a foe down to get CA from prone and then use an AP to get Sneak Attack, or he can use a higher level special ability. But, the odds of him still having an AP or special ability at the end of a last man standing fight is probably pretty rare.

And, it's not just last man standing fights (which tend to be rare), but just fights where the Striker is off to the side in a fight on his own.


The Thief can bring +2 CA and +3 Backstab and +1 Weapon Talent (at level 2) to the table and not even need Heroic Effort like many other Human Strikers to mostly ensure that his Nova round works.

+6 already without help from a single PC ally. That's huge. Allies don't need to give them power bonuses to hit or combat advantage, allies can give them power bonuses to damage.

Boom! :lol:

A PC ally wasting an action doing Aid Another and giving the Thief flank? Why do that when the Thief doesn't need it and the PC ally can use his action for something more worthwhile?

If an ally is going to help the Thief, giving him a damage boost on a Nova round is a lot preferable to giving him a to hit boost. Silvery Arrow or Blessings of Wrath instead of Righteous Brand or Lance of Faith.

That's not necessarily true of most other Strikers.

All of those example i gave didn´t even really try to optimize heavily... if i take furious assault into account as an orc, heroic effort as a human or a good at will i can take with either half elf or human instead of heroic effort and soon you see those numbers start beeing comparable.

Yes. Comparable. For the Nova round. Not so much for the non-Nova rounds which make up a high percentage of rounds.

And just as a reminder: daze and prone are two conditions that may make a thief´s life hard and reduce his damage output considerably. Out of turn attacks from thief´s even if you theoretically can get sneak attack often don´t because the condition that allowed you to gain CA does not apply anymore if you did not get it by good old flanking.
This is something neglected in DPR. Not that you get out of turn attacks very often, but the possibility hinders enemies choices a lot...

Yes. Prone (which can be handled with an AP) and Daze are weaknesses of both the Thief and the Rogue. There are ways to handle them as well and they typically just lower damage for a single round in one encounter in X (most Thieves and Rogues are not dazed or knocked prone every single encounter, it's a bit more rare than that). Hardly worth mentioning in the big scheme of things (and either of these in round one for a Thief or a Rogue typically means little as they can walk around two weapon and throw a dagger at a foe who's init they have beaten).

As for Daze, have the Leader give the Thief a save out of turn (just like you are talking about the Cleric using Righteous Brand to set up a Nova round) and Daze becomes a lot less important staple of the DM's anti-Thief arsenal.
 

This time I can agree with most you say here. The thief works great on his own. The rogue however is also quite good at it too. He has powers to let him shine on this scenario. Especially if he is able to get a surprise round and win initiative and the fight is most probably over before the enemy acts.

Daze however does not hurt the standard rogue as much as it hurts the thief. He has powers that guarantee him combat advantage for a round or two. Those powers usually don´t do a lot more damage so chances are he has them still available when there is a last man standing scenario happening.

I don´t want to tell you that the thief is underpowered or a one trick pony or NOT doing most DPR ideally, but I try to make clear, that DPR is not the only thing to consider when you look at a striker.
The thief seems to do his job great. It just seems as his primary role is striker, and his secondary role happens to be striker too...

edit: per RAW, removing daze happens to be harder than you may think, as daze ueont can´t be ended with a save (which i consider an error in RAW, but this is just my opinion)
 
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