D&D 5E Heteroglossia and D&D: Why D&D Speaks in a Multiplicity of Playing Styles


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Thomas Shey

Legend
I think that reaction stems from differences of opinion around what good and okay mean.

Because I agree with the basic sentiment. That’s basically the same argument i make except with ‘okay’ replacing good.

I'd argue there are absolutely some people--including some in this thread--who have used "good" however, if not stronger terms.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
To me that would be a much more interesting discussion to have.

Historically how important has it been to be first, especially in games and more broadly in all other industries. Sports might make a good starting comparison - it’s really hard for a new sport to totally take off. We get some hype around certain newer ones at times. But they all mostly remain fairly niche. Usually fairly quickly peaking in interest.

But sports is large enough to support 4 or 5 dominate ones and a dozen or so slightly less popular ones before you get to truly niche levels.

A number of those became popular not too far from the same time, however, or became popular in geographically separate areas. All the most well known ones (soccer, American football, baseball, ice hockey) coalesced into what we think of them sometime in the mid to late 19th Centuries, and even basketball, the new kid on the block, didn't start forming long after. An important issue is that they all emerged prior to mass media, too, so it was hard for any of them to become dominant except regionally.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Agreed. Of course, we are not often given the actual design goals the writers were aiming for, so that can be difficult.

One thing I have been saying for a whole now, and I will keep saying, is that when you ask the question, "Is this more/better designed?" the question is incomplete. The question more fully stated is "Is this better designed for specific purpose X?"

If course what confuses the issue here is a phenomenon (not unique to D&D) where at least some proponents seem to think its both a floor wax and a desert topping, which is to say its the proper tool for everything they (and by extension sometimes overtly sometimes not, everyone else) wants to do. At that point you're reducing to discussing its general and broad utility because you've eliminated any focus from the discussion.

(There are games that are at least avowedly intended that way, but even with those its questionable that they work as well as people claim (and I say this as a person who generally prefers generic systems). But for all it sometimes might suggest this, I don't think this has ever really been what any D&D design has tried to do, and the more you try to do that with it the more redesign work on parts you need to do and/or the more warts are revealed).
 


Thomas Shey

Legend
Yeah, heaven forbid that people call a game they enjoy "good ".

If you're going to claim its good, then you don't get to get soggy when other people suggest its just adequate, and then wave around its success and act like that actually says anything about how good it really is.

Basically, you don't get to have it both ways.
 

Oofta

Legend
If you're going to claim its good, then you don't get to get soggy when other people suggest its just adequate, and then wave around its success and act like that actually says anything about how good it really is.

Basically, you don't get to have it both ways.
I'm just stating my opinion that it's a good game.

Why is that so terrible?
 



Thomas Shey

Legend
I disagree with people that say the game is poorly designed because they don't like some aspect. Last time I checked I'm allowed to like the game.

And they're allowed to say there's bad design. If you don't like that, argue with their point, but remember this was about why people roll their eyes and point out the other reasons when people respond to criticism with (and yes, I'm being hyperbolic) "Its obvious its good, look at the success". Don't try to beg the question.
 

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