D&D 5E Hex Shenanigans

[Charlaquin]

What a weird thread.

 

[MarkB]

If a warlock of Asmodeus was considering whether to pull such a trick as this, they would best be served to check the fine print.

Creative loophole exploitation seems like exactly the sort of thing that would make Asmodeus proud of a chosen minion.

 

[Eltab]

Creative loophole exploitation seems like exactly the sort of thing that would make Asmodeus proud of a chosen minion.

... as long as it is some third party, not Asmodeus himself, who is being taken advantage of.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I'd certainly encourage the other members of the party to relentlessly mock the warlock character for their early-morning livestock-molesting activities.

It's bag of rats, yes. In practice, I'd just have my warlock find the nearest bug or bird and do it with that creature. Easier than buying chickens all the time.


...unless we cook the chickens...in which case, the bonus is a delicious breakfast every morning! I withdraw my statement. I'm buying chickens from now on.

Indeed. I'm almost certain that there would be no adverse side effects of eating a creature that was recently cursed by a fey noble or major demon.
Practic'ly guaranteed.
I'd stake your soul on it in fact.

There is an irrational, knee-jerk reaction to the phrase: "Bag of Rats".

In reality, the laws of physics work how they work. What you or I think about those laws can not change how they actually work.

In our D&D fantasy worlds, spells work how they work. Spells do exactly what it says on the tin what their description says they do. The opinions of how the creatures in the game think spells should work have no bearing on how they actually work.

Similarly, the opinions of the players of the game do not alter how spells work in the game....on a whim. A DM/player may make houserules, but that effectively changes the spell description,sure, but it cannot be that a player's/DM's opinion on a creature's motive for casting a spell changes the spell description, i.e. change how it actually works.

The hex spell works how it works. If you change the spell description as a houserule, then it works how its revised description says it works.

But it cannot be that the spell works as it says it does....unless the DM doesn't like your motives for casting it on that particular valid target because they don't like your perceived motive.

Yes. It appears that this example is technically correct by the way the rules work.
Just like the original bag of rats example.

 

[Coroc]

So I saw this thread just now on how to mess with hex so you don’t use a spell slot for it. What they did was carry a chicken around with them. After a battle they would move hex on to the chicken to save a spell slot. How practical is this? I can see maybe a familiar, but that would be expensive. Wait what animal reproduce through regeneration? I can see maybe carrying a starfish around or anything that can regenerate and can live for a while. Any animal ideas?

No further ideas, but everything has hitpoints, a chicken has few of them, and a chicken can meet its untimely end by so many means ...
especially when debuffed with a hex spell....

• A stray cat
• A loose brick
• Some poisoned bird seed
• A trap by Viley Coyote the roadrunnnig Gnoll
• Some stray arrow
• Friendly fire
• The Soldier boot of a Gatewarden
• A market carriot whose horses run free
• A trained hawk which gets a little in between hunger
• A desperate time traveler looking for the next Kentucky fried chicken

and so on

EDIT: Just for the freakin lols I would not hesitate the slightest to pull out any of the stunts listed by me and more every single time a warlock would try this at my table.

Really. Every. Single. Time.
Did you see what I did there ?

 

[Oofta]

I can see it now, somewhere deep in the abyss a scrawny devil clerk timidly approaches Asmodeus at his desk.

"Um, sir? I have that report about that minion you had asked for..."

Asmodeus, leaning back in his office chair of charred skulls "You're going to have to be a bit more specific"

"Oh, yes, George ... err George the Blackhearted number 8293"

"He couldn't have just kept George? Perfectly fine name. Tacking on Blackhearted just lets people in on your" looking up, Asmodeus shakes his head. "Sorry, where were we?"

The clerk nervously shuffling papers "Ah, yes it seems your pawn has been quite willing to use your gifts."

Asmodeus leans forward with interest "Well, yes, that's what they are for! Is he corrupting souls, taking over kingdoms? He certainly seems to be a rising star by his numbers."

"Well, uh, sire. He seems to be" clears his throat and carefully reads from his paper "hexing chickens."

Asmodeus pauses for a moment, grasping the bridge of his nose between thumb and forefinger " "Did I hear you say" chickens? He's wasting my gift on poultry?"

The clerk starts edging back towards the door as the room grows even more infernally hot "Yes sire"

"Bring him." Asmodeus barely whispers.

"Sire?" comes the query from a short distance out in the hall.

"Was I not clear? " Asmodeus growls, the sound somehow echoing far away. "Bring him here. Now. We need to have a chat about the proper use of power."

The clerk flees as Asmodeus flicks his hand creating one torture device after another trying to decide which one to apply first.

 

[Arial Black]

If I was fireballing chickens instead of hexing them, would the DM Asmodeus take away my powers then? Why?

Do any class abilities have a caveat: Caution! Does not work if your DM suspects you my using the game rules to do things the game allows but the DM doesn't like?

Does my fighter's sword fail to work as a sword if the target is a puppy? Are my fighter class abilities suppressed by the DM some Deus ex Machina?

The 'bag of rats' problem is not a problem of player behaviour, it is a problem of poorly written rules. If you don't like the way hex or any other spell works, then change the spell description. It will then work according to that revised description.

It will not fail to work on the random whim of a player or DM!

If you don't like how hex works, what would be your revised spell description?

 

[jaelis]

If you don't like how hex works, what would be your revised spell description?

I would simply rule that a chicken doesn't qualify as a creature here.

Here's a better example of the same idea: Necromancer wizard is in a fight that's not going well. The setting is a gothic castle with spider webs etc. The wizard casts circle of death on the bad guys, knowing they have too many hp left for it to kill them. But he makes sure plenty of the spider webs are in the area of effect and claims he can benefit from Grim Harvest for killing the spiders, thus healing 18 hp. I'd say no: the spiders don't count as creatures, at least not for this purpose.

If you feel that just the player being clever and you're happy to reward him for it, that's cool with me. But I don't feel any obligation to follow suit.

 

[MGibster]

If I was fireballing chickens instead of hexing them, would the DM Asmodeus take away my powers then? Why?

You make a valid point here. Punishing a character in game will just lead to bad feelings all around and is a poor way to handle the situation. The DM should speak with the player directly and explain their ruling. Even if the player disagrees at least they'll feel as though they're being treated with respect.

Do any class abilities have a caveat: Caution! Does not work if your DM suspects you my using the game rules to do things the game allows but the DM doesn't like?

Every rule in the game is subject to the DM's interpretation. And if the DM interprets that a rule is being exploited in a way he or she feels was not intended it's okay to tell the player they can't do that.

The 'bag of rats' problem is not a problem of player behaviour, it is a problem of poorly written rules. If you don't like the way hex or any other spell works, then change the spell description. It will then work according to that revised description.

I think it is a problem of player behavior. Quite frankly, if I was a player and the DM used this trick against one of my characters I'd be pretty pissed off.

It will not fail to work on the random whim of a player or DM!

I agree. But it might fail based on a deliberate interpretation of how the rules work and making sure the game isn't broken.

 

[Oofta]

If I was fireballing chickens instead of hexing them, would the DM Asmodeus take away my powers then? Why?

Do any class abilities have a caveat: Caution! Does not work if your DM suspects you my using the game rules to do things the game allows but the DM doesn't like?

Does my fighter's sword fail to work as a sword if the target is a puppy? Are my fighter class abilities suppressed by the DM some Deus ex Machina?

The 'bag of rats' problem is not a problem of player behaviour, it is a problem of poorly written rules. If you don't like the way hex or any other spell works, then change the spell description. It will then work according to that revised description.

It will not fail to work on the random whim of a player or DM!

If you don't like how hex works, what would be your revised spell description?

I don't allow bag of rats exploits. If you want your chicken extra crispy you're wasting a slot but it gains you nothing other than some flaming hot wings.

This is an exploit trying to game the system by following the letter of the rules for advantage. It's along the same lines as Pun-Pun or commoner rail gun.

Rules are never going to be perfect, don't come to me with shenanigans or expect me to attempt to write bullet proof rules. It's not possible.

Feel free to run your game differently.