D&D 5E Hex Shenanigans

[Xetheral]

I'm not particularly fond of the warlock class for campaign reasons in the first place, the fact that it's only been done in games I've personally played as an exploit/gaming the system just makes it worse.

I can totally see why the out-of-combat Hex followed by a short rest can be seen as an exploit/gaming the system. I personally think it's fine (and, as my previous anecdote illustrated, was a positive contribution to the one game I've seen in it used in) but I can see both sides.

I don't see, however, how class selection can be seen as an exploit/gaming the system. Could you please clarify what you mean by this? Different campaigns have different styles, and I can totally see how someone making a character in an incompatible style (e.g. treating class descriptions as suggested fluff in a game where they are mandatory) is problematic. But how does making an incompatible style of character qualify as an exploit/gaming the system?

 

[Arial Black]

As far as I can tell from your list above most of your PCs are exactly the kind of thing I get tired of. Couple levels of warlock to get a power boost and then on to their "real" class.

In the list of six characters I gave you, ALL had more than two warlock levels, and four out of six intended to get more warlock levels as they level up. One of the two that won't is because they are already 20th level and can't get more levels of anything! If she could then she'd go all warlock from that point.

So the only one of six that doesn't intend to get any more levels of warlock started as a 1st level warlock and got to War 5 before multiclassing.

Yet you read the list I gave you which demonstrates that I am not the kind of player who only dips warlock for 2 levels, and yet you conclude that I am that kind of player!

This further demonstrates that your irrational hatred of the class extends to those who want to play one. This is not a warlock problem; this is a you problem!

 

[Oofta]

In the list of six characters I gave you, ALL had more than two warlock levels, and four out of six intended to get more warlock levels as they level up. One of the two that won't is because they are already 20th level and can't get more levels of anything! If she could then she'd go all warlock from that point.

So the only one of six that doesn't intend to get any more levels of warlock started as a 1st level warlock and got to War 5 before multiclassing.

Yet you read the list I gave you which demonstrates that I am not the kind of player who only dips warlock for 2 levels, and yet you conclude that I am that kind of player!

This further demonstrates that your irrational hatred of the class extends to those who want to play one. This is not a warlock problem; this is a you problem!

Thanks for your in depth insight and analysis of the games I've been personally involved in.

I'm done discussing this with you because this whole thread is probably going to get red-lettered soon.

 

[Phazonfish]

I now know why you don't want the warlock to interact with their patrons at all.

Me too. The dude's played SIX warlocks. Tension with one's patron can be a fun and flavorful story, but I wouldn't want to do it every single time.

Do you also make your wizards idiots? Do you make your druids ruthless industrialists?

Making an idiot wizard work sounds like a fun challenge from both an RP and mechanical perspective. Refluffing a Druid's abilities as one who has a thorough knowledge of the power of nature without necessarily revering it, like many Rangers, seems very plausible.

Hopefully you'll forgive me for thinking that, because you don't involve your patron in your warlock, that means that you think you shouldn't have any consequences for murdering a NPC in broad daylight in the middle of the street.

I mean, I try not to hold things against people, but I really don't understand how you made the jump of "I decided when writing my character's backstory that their patron is kinda laissez faire" means "murder has no consequences ever."

In the list of six characters I gave you, ALL had more than two warlock levels, and four out of six intended to get more warlock levels as they level up. One of the two that won't is because they are already 20th level and can't get more levels of anything! If she could then she'd go all warlock from that point.

So the only one of six that doesn't intend to get any more levels of warlock started as a 1st level warlock and got to War 5 before multiclassing.

Yet you read the list I gave you which demonstrates that I am not the kind of player who only dips warlock for 2 levels, and yet you conclude that I am that kind of player!

This further demonstrates that your irrational hatred of the class extends to those who want to play one. This is not a warlock problem; this is a you problem!

I KNOW, RIGHT?! No offense to Oofta, but you can tell the anti-warlock bias out there is strong when you say "I took 14 levels in Warlock" and someone unironically retorts "Oh, so just a couple level dip for a cheap boost?"

 

[jaelis]

Aside from aid and mage armor not being on the warlock spell list, I think they are interesting examples. If you dislike the chicken tactic, would you also be annoyed if the warlock cast those spells in the morning and then took a short rest to get back the slots? If so then it seems your issue is with the short rest mechanic, not the chicken. If not then I suspect it's a question of whether a chicken is a valid target. If the warlock snuck off before breakfast and killed a bear, would you have the same objection? Or maybe its this particular combination of gaming the targeting rules and the rest mechanic together?

 

[Arial Black]

It makes sense to pre cast mage armor. You don't want to waste an action on the first round of combat casting it. It's clearly meant to be a pre buff.

Hex on the other hand requires concentration and only takes a bonus action to cast. IOW, there's a decent chance you gain very little for pre casting it. If you get hit and lose concentration, you've literally gained nothing. If you decide to cast a different concentration spell before you've used hex, again, no benefit. You're bending over backwards every day to gain a marginal benefit. Easy for the player. I'm unconvinced the character would appreciate the routine nearly as much.

Not to mention that the original trick involves hauling a chicken coop with you on your adventures! Not sure if you've been around chickens, but I had a friend whose mom raised them, and they are both smelly and noisy. Not really an ideal pet or food source when adventuring.

I agree with all that. It may be to no avail. It may be that you use both your slots and then get attacked before you can rest (hopefully not by a [collective noun] of grudge tarrasques!). That's the rational risk/reward you're calculating.

It's up to the player, not the DM, how the PC casts their spells.

If the player wants to take the trouble to haul around a cage full of chickens, just be realistic about the consequences, not arbitrary, not with the universe suspending its own laws just to vex me. I'll be realistic about choosing whether or not to haul around a cage of chickens.

So far, I never have. None of my PCs has ever carried around a 'bag of rats' either literally or figuratively. I can envision a larger caravan carrying such things for food, and if they did then I'd be around just before they killed one to hex it if I didn't expect action in the next hour, because that makes sense! I'm taking advantage of the laws of the universe for my own advantage, just like every living creature in the universe!

It's exactly the sort of thing one might try to exploit a poorly designed system in a computer game, but shouldn't happen with a thinking DM at the table.

What do you think is poorly designed? The spell? How Pact Magic works? I really don't see a problem here.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

What do you think is poorly designed? The spell? How Pact Magic works? I really don't see a problem here.

The warlock as a class, personally.

Though I understand why it's a good multiclass dip (why work for power when you can just buy it?" has happened a lot and is almost always a good story) It is almost never played out that way, and if you do you get people getting mad that you're "interfering with my character!"

 

[Oofta]

Ugh...my apologies. Too much multitasking and I completely, totally misread @Arial Black post on his PCs

In my games it's always been a couple of levels and then on to the real class. When it happens every time (roughly 20 players in different groups, 5 multi-class warlocks) it becomes a pattern.

Again ... oops.

 

[Phazonfish]

What do you think is poorly designed? The spell? How Pact Magic works? I really don't see a problem here.

In all fairness, I do think poor design is what is aggravating the problem here. The Warlock chassis way too front-loaded, and the Hexblade subclass continues to pile on. Oops, looks like I've been ninja'd. At least that means someone else agrees.

 

[Fenris-77]

The warlock as a class, personally.

Interesting. The Warlock class is one of my favorite mechanical things about 5E.