Hey Old One: After Action Report?

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Mmm, sin, I'm not seeing it either.

In the end, the game was designed from a certain standpoint to be balanced in certain ways. One of those is extra SP for high Int. It's a value-added for the Int stat.

Your argument seems to be that, in the scheme of things, Int has enough added value from the possiblity for spellcasting to balance it against other skills OR that some stats just weren't born equal and Int shouldn't be gifted with greater impact BECAUSE:

Skills should be entirely based on archetypes and the strictures of Stats inherent within the D20 system?

I'm not sure. That seems to be what the last post was saying. Strong heroes should be good at Strength skills because they're Strong heroes AND they should have lower SP totals because they're Strong heroes and that's inherent in the archetype.

Your supporting statement's that if they want more SPs and to be "smarter" in terms of SPs they should take levels in Smart hero, as it's archetype is Intelligence skills and higher SP totals?

In the end the sticking point for me is your assumption that the Stat must forever be the Most Important Determinant for any particular stat-linked skill. The construction of the system seems to suggest that pure ability accounts for SOME of one's aptitude with a skill (Ability bonus) but that LEARNING (skill points) account for more in the long run.

By your assumption that Archetype (and thus class) should be totally deterministic for skills, why have skill points? Why not say that Strong heroes should increase the bonus to X Str-based skills each time they level up? That's sort of what I'm seeing your argument boil down to. You want Int based skills, take a Smart level and increase your bonus in X Int-based skills.

The problem I'm seeing is the focus on one aspect of the game to the exclusion of others. By focusing on hypotheticals, possible-stories, and what Skill/Stat combinations should "make more sense" in any particular Archetype you're coming up fast on that area where you're going to break one aspect of the game in an attempt to "fix" it to perfection.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the game is abstract. As an abstract system, it's not going to coincide with any particular view of reality. Which is good. Your take on reality may not be my take on reality. Games tell stories, and we can tell a thousand stories about the how/why of any particular rule or rule combination. Who can tell the better story about whichever rule combination they think is better isn't really going to do much good ... your story isn't my story, my story isn't Rodrigo's story, his isn't yours, and all up and down the web.

So in the end we need to step back to the rules of the game, as a game, as an abstract. It's still my opinion that Intelligence, as a game stat, is increased in utility by the addition of bonus SPs. It allows us more options in story-telling (more open archetypes, in my GAME, is better than stricter archetypes, so saying EVERY level of Str gives EXACTLY the same SPs put ONLY in specific skills limits my story), and keeps Int, as an abstract, with the specific amount of utility it currently has.

Within the system, as it stands, Skill Points are linked to Intelligence and Skill Points are linked to EVERY Skill. I feel that's core to the system. By removing the connection of Skill Points to Intelligence, you remove the connection of Intelligence to Every Skill as well ... both were your intention, but I think both are part of the utility of Intelligence. Spell access IS a value-added to Intelligence, but I think it's already taken into account in the other fundamentals of the game design, so you're taking away from something I see as balanced already, making an imbalance in the game.

Just to talk about balance ... Charisma has, for quite a while, been a less-balanced stat, in my opinion. Fewer value-adds. Cha has the interaction skill list, which is important for some game types, but not for all ... Use Magic Device is a Cha skill, which I think is effective. Cha also gets some stuff related to Turn Undead (not every campaign) and some interesting feats (some of which I add to my games as value-adds for Cha). One of the most interesting value adds for Cha that I've seen in a while, and one I very much like, is Grim Tales' horror mechanic. Very nice. It brings Cha up there with the other skills and reduces its attractiveness as a "useless" stat. I also have a mechanic in my own games based off of Cha for "Luck"-based checks ... found items and the like. Adds to Charisma, makes it more useful.

Nothing about story or archetype, I just think Int has the relation to SPs and thus to all skills for a pretty core design reason and I haven't been convinced otherwise.

This was all one of the background principles I thought about long and hard when I was moving magic over to a Skills based system. Which is one big reason I felt that having many of the skills in any particular style of magic based on DIFFERENT abilities worked the best. If all magic were based on Int, say, then the synergistic relationship between magic/skill-points/Intelligence would be too great.

--fje

 

[sinmissing]

I don't believe that people are saying that. People are saying that, all other things being equal, a smart person will pick up more skills than an otherwise equivalent dumb person.

Either Rodrigo is saying specifically that his intelligence is responsible for his ability to gain extra skills, or he is completely incorrect in attributing his intelligence to his job and instead is actually benefitting from wise time management. (A high WIS)

Strong Hero with 10 Int versus Strong Hero with 18 Int: The more intelligent strong hero picks up the techniques involved in climbing and jumping faster than his buddy.

I disagree. I cannot follow the rest of this argument, because the initial premise is mired in an intellectual superiority complex. "I'm smart, so I learn everything faster". A strong person learns to do things that require strength faster than a weak intelligent person, I have personal experience in this, having been raised in a working class family who specializes in construction (both interior and exterior, to include roofing). Being a smart worker only gets you so far. You can compensate with intelligence, but being smart does not immediately make you more capable at doing anything, much like Weapon Finesse allows you to compensate for a low Strength when wielding a light weapon by using your Dexterity, it should be possible to compensate the lack of a specific natural talent with another talent, but every skill in D20 has one specific attribute which governs your natural capability.

Of course, you don't have to take my word for it, just go out and find a class of people, whose opportunities greatly inhibit the pursuit of intellectual subjects, whose resources limit their capability in expressing artistic, literal, or philosophical ideas, yet seem capable of filling the roles of the manual laborer, infantry man, or on the rare occasion, sports hero.

Only by falsely weighing the example to support your conclusion can your argument succeed. If you take two strong heroes with equal strength, all things being equal, they will have equivalent BAB, Hit Points, and 2 Skill Points per level, but the intelligent of the two will have an untapped knack for INT based skills, not a magical font of free Skill Points from which to draw on.

Strong Hero with 20 Int versus Smart Hero with 8 Int: The Strong hero is a bloody genius. He studies hard, thinks logically about what he's doing, and improves with remarkable speed given the opportunity.

Now I must abandon intellectual superiority and belittle the effort it takes a smart person to achieve his intellectual goals? Intelligence must be excercised and practised just like Strength, Hand Eye Coordination, or Social Graces. Every individual must balance their time between physical and mental persuits. The Smart Hero abandons, however temporary, physical and martial pursuits in order to gain a broad base of knowledge. The Strong hero hones their physical prowess at the cost of something else. Why is it that the Strong Hero is allowed, in addition to their outstanding hit points and bab, extra skill points which should be the forte of the Smart Hero? I've only heard opinions which allow a Strong Hero to do just that. I have yet to hear a reasonable example of why the Smart Hero can't get interative attacks because of a. Their incredible intellect for finding the best way to attack, or b. Because of a naturally high Strength or Dexterity.

Maybe in your campaign, buddy, but not in mine.

Why, because in your campaign the smart means dumb, up is down, and fire is a cool refreshing drink?

The Strong Hero does not have to be strong. He is someone who has devoted some training to making the most of the Strength he does have.

Then please give justification why we can diminish the value of a skill point, by allowing the Strong Hero a free pool of points due to high intelligence, but we can't belittle the effort to increase one's BAB by allowing a Smart Hero with a high Strength to have iterative attacks?

Just like you don't get an iterative attack if you have a BAB of +2 and an ability score modifier of +4, you can't use a "not untrained" skill even if the ability tied to that skill would give you a positive modifier. Just like you can't get more than common knowledge on a Knowledge score unless you put ranks into it.

You shouldn't get more skill points unless you put effort into gaining them, just like you can't get iterative attacks quickly unless you focus on a martial class, this is my experience and my opinion. I say let Strong mean Physically Powerful, Smart mean highly skilled, and hone the best parts of Grim Tales.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Hrm, after reading further I'm just becoming more convinced. It seems you have a specific opinion of what each archetype should represent within that one aspect of the game and are twisting the system a little too far to support it.

I like some of the things Grim Tales did with skills BECAUSE it opened some doors to mix between archetypes, making the system more flexible while maintaining what I see as distinct core concepts within the system as a whole.

This change seemed to be predicated on a very specific story you're telling with the rules.

--fje

 

[sinmissing]

Before this gets out of hand, let me just say that it's just a game. You either agree or don't, no big deal.

My opinion, based solely within d20 game mechanics, is this: There are 5 quantifiable elements to a character, one for each class. These are:
Base Attack Bonus
Defense
Reputation
Skill Points
Hit Points

No GT class has the corner market on Saves.

Each class excels in one of these class elements, the Dedicated Hero being a balance of Smart and Strong Hero.
My entire premise for removing INT bonus from Skill Points, is to enhance the natural focus of each character class, and to prevent what I perceive as a design inconsistency, by allowing a class that does not focus on Skill Points as a character element to circumvent this limitation by having a high intelligence.

You can't get iterative attacks with a high dex, you can't compensate a low hit point total with a high Cha, a high Intelligence should not allow you to gain a class feature without taking the class which defines that feature.

Simple.

This is already done to a certain extent in d20. Notice that the classes with the least Skill Points per Level, have the least number of class skills. Even with bonus skill points, the character must still contend with cross-class skill cost (1 SP = 1/2 Rank), and a limit of Skill Rank. Why not simplify the entire procedure, by removing cross-class skill cost and bonus skill points, and limit how a character can spend points so that they are in keeping with the class that was selected.

What is so mind shattering about this?

While it is easy to invite me to do what I will, it is just as easy to invite you to not respond. You can boil anything down, so that it is bland, without focus, and completely silly, now lets get back to the topic, eh?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

For the record, and to be brief, I think removing bonus skill points for Int is a bad idea.

 

[takyris]

Either Rodrigo is saying specifically that his intelligence is responsible for his ability to gain extra skills, or he is completely incorrect in attributing his intelligence to his job and instead is actually benefitting from wise time management. (A high WIS)

Rodrigo might well have been saying that, because it's true, to an extent. Being smarter does let you learn more things. I'm sorry if this really bothers you. It seems to really bother you.

I disagree. I cannot follow the rest of this argument, because the initial premise is mired in an intellectual superiority complex. "I'm smart, so I learn everything faster". A strong person learns to do things that require strength faster than a weak intelligent person, I have personal experience in this, having been raised in a working class family who specializes in construction (both interior and exterior, to include roofing).

Um, dude, you realize that the only way I can counter this argument is by making statements that you're going to find insulting, right? That's not exactly the most conducive way to handle a discussion.

On the other hand, you said that I was mired in an intellectual superiority complex, which is sort of insulting, so what the hey.

I'm going to say this very simply:

All other things being equal, the smarter guy learns faster.

Really. I'm sorry. Also, all other things being equal, the fatter guy uses more soap than the thinner guy.

What you're doing, it would seem, by your personal family life, is taking people with naturally strong ability scores and comparing them to people with naturally weak ability scores, and then saying, "Haha, the people with high Int but low Strength did not do as well, Int be darned!"

Which is completely and totally true... for the first couple ranks. At level one, the Strong guy with no ranks in Climb is still equal to, or even better, the Weak guy with several ranks in Climb. It's only after a lot of training (ie, higher levels) that skill ranks begin to matter more than natural ability. This also happens in combat -- at level 1, Strength is probably going to help a character more than BAB. At level 10, not so much.

Regarding your family -- either they're smarter than you think they are, and you're just not giving them credit where credit is due (ie, a father who is a good carpenter(craft), a successful businessman(profession), a
caring and devoted father (sense motive), a leader in his community (diplomacy), and an avid follower of sports and politics (knowledge:current events) might very well have a relatively high Int, even if he can't solve quadratic equations), or else you're seeing things through the lens of pride.

And for the record, you're not the only one here who has worked with his hands. Don't be a working-class elitist. It's not polite.

Being a smart worker only gets you so far. You can compensate with intelligence, but being smart does not immediately make you more capable at doing anything...

No. Being Smart doesn't make you better at anything (except Int-based skills, obviously). What it does do is give you the ability to take on more forms of learning simultaneously. Important difference.

...but every skill in D20 has one specific attribute which governs your natural capability.

Like Intelligence, which governs your natural capacity to Learn Stuff.

Of course, you don't have to take my word for it, just go out and find a class of people, whose opportunities greatly inhibit the pursuit of intellectual subjects, whose resources limit their capability in expressing artistic, literal, or philosophical ideas, yet seem capable of filling the roles of the manual laborer, infantry man, or on the rare occasion, sports hero.

Hm. Now you're saying that people who don't pursue intellectual subjects or express artistic stuff aren't smart? Oh. That explains it. For all your "this is intellctually superiority-complex-ist" stuff, you're actually being a bit of a snob. If you don't think that learning several different physical trades simultaneously or learning several different athletic activities simultaneously requires a lot of smarts, then you're... um... wrong. "Smart" is not limited to "Quadratic Equations".

Only by falsely weighing the example to support your conclusion can your argument succeed. If you take two strong heroes with equal strength, all things being equal, they will have equivalent BAB, Hit Points, and 2 Skill Points per level, but the intelligent of the two will have an untapped knack for INT based skills, not a magical font of free Skill Points from which to draw on.

Um, no. By the book, he has extra skill points. Really. It's right there. If those two strong heroes are equal except for their intelligence, then the more intelligent guy will be able to pick up another skill. Maybe it's Int-based -- the soldiers who, in their spare time, do distance learning courses, for example -- or maybe they just remember a bit more of their training (where they both have the same skills, but the more intelligent guy has them all at one rank higher, because he's learned more from practicing than the other guy).

I understand that in sin-world, really dumb people still get really good at lots of things, but... no. They don't. Paying attention and learning physical trades or physical skills like Tumbling or Climbing requires some degree of intelligence. You have to be smart in some teensy tiny way to understand why that last jump didn't go so well, and what you can do to fix it. In football, physical scores are key, but you also have to have the intelligence to figure out what the coach is telling you to do with your feet to set you up to break past the linemen. If you're dumb, you're still working on that while the smart guy has gone "Okay" and moved on to figuring out how to get his hands right to beat the blocker.

Again, this assumes that the dumb guy and smart guy are otherwise equal. If the dumb guy is stronger than the smart guy, the dumb guy starts out with a natural advantage, and if both the dumb and smart guy max out their ranks in the skill, the dumb guy maintains that natural advantage. Intelligence isn't breaking this. The only advantage the smart guy would have in this situation is the fact that he could max out his ranks and still have ranks left over to spend on something else, while the dumb guy pretty much lives his sports training and does nothing else, because he can't afford to get distracted.

Why is it that the Strong Hero is allowed, in addition to their outstanding hit points and bab, extra skill points which should be the forte of the Smart Hero?

If they both have an Int of 16, the Strong Hero (human) goes from 3 to 6 per level. The Smart Hero goes from 9 to 12 per level. I don't see this as hurting the Smart hero in a big way. And I've played a 16 Int Strong Hero. It's nice to have skill points, sure, but it would have been nicer to have a higher Con. It was a roleplaying choice, not a way for me to screw over another class.

I've only heard opinions which allow a Strong Hero to do just that. I have yet to hear a reasonable example of why the Smart Hero can't get interative attacks because of a. Their incredible intellect for finding the best way to attack, or b. Because of a naturally high Strength or Dexterity.

Perhaps you didn't read the part where I refuted this argument. Hey, if you're arguing that way, then the 3rd Level Strong Hero with the Strength of 16 should get iterative attacks too, since his BAB+Str is +6!

You're comparing things out of context and drawing flawed conclusions.

That aside, look up the Smart Hero Talents "Exploit Weakness" and "Plan". They don't give iterative attacks, but they do make the Smart Hero more effective at hitting things because he can find the best way to attack.

Then please give justification why we can diminish the value of a skill point, by allowing the Strong Hero a free pool of points due to high intelligence, but we can't belittle the effort to increase one's BAB by allowing a Smart Hero with a high Strength to have iterative attacks?

I did. You didn't like it. You're in the minority.

And we're not giving the Strong Hero free points. Assuming Point Buy, the Strong Hero's player decided to put a whole mess of points into Int, instead of Con or Dex, which are the most popular choices by far for "Where do I put points once I'm done putting points into Strength" for Strong Heroes created with Point Buy.

If we're attacking "Free things for having high ability scores", and you're really into this, then I expect you to be marching proudly at the front of the "No free hit points for High Con" rally next week. Why should people get free hit points just for having a high Con? Doesn't that take away from the Tough Hero? Think of all the poor Tough heroes, sitting lonely on the steps and watching Smart Heroes with Constitutions of 20 being carried on the backs of adoring crowds! The Tough Hero's biggest strength is his hit points, but someone with a really high Con can have almost as many hit points -- this is so completely unfair as to defy description!

 

[sinmissing]

I've been pretty frank in saying that INT can compensate for a lack of natural talent, such as STR, but it seems that it should only compensate so much. When you take d20 as a whole, over 20 levels, it seems that an INT bonus is greatly inflated when compared to a person's physical or social gifts. This is all within the context of the d20 mechanic, which I feel is a point I have failed to make since I used so many personal examples in presenting this idea. Oh well, I said RL examples can be terrible, and highly argumentative, to bring up within the context of discussing game mechanics. I guess I should take my own advice and stop using them

I think that the 6 classes represent a character's general field of study, direction, focus, what have you. Strong Heroes get lower skill points than Smart Heroes because they focus on martial skills, not because they're dumb or whatever you want to call them. They get less skill points because they have X amount of time, and they used that time to improve BAB and HP, leaving less time for scholastics or general hobbies.

Smart Heroes get less of a reputation bonus than Charismatic Heroes because they focus on all non-social skills.

I'm not arguing that Strong Heroes can't have a high Intelligence, I'm arguing that all things being equal; and I'm assuming that the classes are equal; no Hero should have more skill points than the Smart Hero. No hero should have a higher BAB than the Strong Hero, and no hero gets a higher base Defense than the Fast Hero.

I'm talking about the Archetype here, which I feel needs to be readdressed in a game that does not use the traditional Fighter, Wizard, Thief classes. In d20, you can play against type and go for a Weak Fighter, but playing a Weak Strong Hero makes my head spin. That's not just playing against type, that is incorrectly assigning the type in the first place!

D20 is a archetype driven game and I'm just exploring how the world is emulated within the rules. And while there are plenty of real life examples where good Intelligence and study can allow you to do tremendous feats of dexterity or strength (remember: lift with your legs), I argue that in GT or d20 Modern (sans PrC/AdC) this is represented by taking a level or two in a skill focused class, unless this skill is one of only a handful which you possess, then it should totally be possible to master this ability by playing a Strong or Tough Hero.

You gave an example of why the rules say you don't get iterative attacks for having a high Strength or Dexterity, which we all knew in the first place. I don't think that explains why someone can get an ever increasing number of skill points over 20 levels for high INT, but not an accelerated BAB for the same high INT or high STR or DEX. The principles for being great at learning things rapidly should be applicable to hitting things more often. There are several feats which allow you to substitute an attribute for skills and even weapon attacks, this is the mechanic that should be encouraged when someone wishes to "play against type"

You can emulate having lots of Skill Points by taking some levels of Smart or Charismatic, or Fast or Dedicated Hero.

The way GT works now, I could make a Strong Hero, take a profession which gives me the handful of class skills that I want, grant myself a decent INT, and now I am almost as competent as the Smart Hero.

I can't however, as you have repeatedly explained, play a Smart Hero, place a high score in STR and get good iterative attacks, nor could I take a Charismatic Hero with a High Dex and get an accelerated Defense Score. My bonus to Hit and Defense are static one time bonuses. Somehow my great INT which lets me learn to do all kinds of skills doesn't apply to learning how to hit someone or avoid a blow, yet it is perfectly reasonable that my high INT gives me insight into climbing or swimming. Which makes me conclude that all things are not equal. A skill point has less value than a +1 BAB, and the Smart Hero is not nearly the equivalent to the Strong Hero.

All the rest of what you said is sulfur.

 

[takyris]

D20 is a archetype driven game and I'm just exploring how the world is emulated within the rules.

I believe that d20 Modern was a conscious attempt to break away from the archetype concept and get people to start defining their character as a person, not a Strong or Tough -- especially since most character concepts require multiclassing.

The way GT works now, I could make a Strong Hero, take a profession which gives me the handful of class skills that I want, grant myself a decent INT, and now I am almost as competent as the Smart Hero.

Bull. I mean, it depends on what you define as "almost as competent", but seriously... bull. A Smart Hero takes those bunch-o-skills, throws down Savant on top of one or two of them, and blows the lid off the skill contest. A Smart Hero doesn't even need a fantastic Int score to have a buttload of skills -- he has every skill the Strong Hero has, and he's better at a lot of them, because he didn't need to spend a bunch of ability score points on Int.

If you seriously believe that you can make a Strong Hero, give him a high Int and good profession, and make him "almost as competent as the Smart Hero", then you haven't actually played a skill-based game in the system. Unless you're defining "almost as competent" as "I can get as many ranks in one skill as the smart hero can in that same skill", which is a comparison narrow enough to be useless.

Again, I've played a Strong Hero with a high Int. It was fun, and I liked being able to hit stuff, but nobody confused me with a Smart hero.

(I was actually a combat medic -- max'd out ranks in Treat Injury, and Craftharmaceutical, a Treat Injury boosting feat, and then Personal Firearms and CMA. For a 2nd level character, I was pretty uber, in terms of having skills and hitting stuff. But that's all I could do. I was still a Strong Hero -- good in one area, decent in one area, and useless in many other areas.)

I can't however, as you have repeatedly explained, play a Smart Hero, place a high score in STR and get good iterative attacks, nor could I take a Charismatic Hero with a High Dex and get an accelerated Defense Score.

You're being overly specific. Let's make the argument "Can I play a Smart Hero who is useful in combat", not "Can I play a Smart Hero who gets iterative attacks at sixth level". The former is useful. The latter is not.

The easy answer to the question I think you want to be asking is "Not really, unless you multilcass." I don't see that as a big loss on my part of the argument, because I also don't think that your high-Int Strong Hero is really shaking the Smart Hero's rafters. Your Strong Hero-with-Int has a few of the Smart Hero's tricks. Can I make a Smart Hero that has a few of the Strong Hero's tricks? Absolutely. Give me a good Dex or Strength, a few Int-using feats like Improved Trip, and a few picks from the Strategy Talent Tree, and I can hold my own. But that will, quite honestly, bear as much resemblence to the raw combat power of a Strong hero as... well, a Strong-hero-with-Int bears to a well-crafted Smart Hero.

My bonus to Hit and Defense are static one time bonuses.

Which come up about ten times as often as the average skill check in a normal game.

Somehow my great INT which lets me learn to do all kinds of skills doesn't apply to learning how to hit someone or avoid a blow, yet it is perfectly reasonable that my high INT gives me insight into climbing or swimming.

Asked and answered. Twice, actually. For the third time:

Int does not make you better at climbing.

Int gives you more flexibility in choosing to learn stuff. Int gives you the chance to learn more things at once. What you choose to learn is up to you.

This is a reasonably realistic way of simulating reality.

You obviously don't like this way of simulating reality, but every time you've argued against it, you bring up a Strong-but-dumb hero and a Weak-but-smart hero, completely mixing up your argument and proving only that smarts can't overcome being fundamentally inclined toward sucking at a given skill. Every time someone brings up two heroes who are equal except that one is smarter, we get white noise in response. Perhaps in your mind, the hero who is exactly the same as the other guy but smarter (in game terms, he was built with more points, and they all went into Int) should get no advantages whatsoever unless he has Knowledge skills. Maybe that's your understanding of reality. It's not the understanding of reality shared by the game designers or most of the people on this thread, but if that works for you -- "Intelligence doesn't help unless it's related to studying something -- it's useless as far as actual physical activity goes" -- then take it and run with it.

As for Int not helping you learn how to hit someone, look at the talent only available to Smart Heroes in d20 Modern -- Exploit Weakness. And the Field Scientist, which is entered most easily from the Smart Hero class, gets Int as a bonus to Defense as one of its abilities. You have to work for those abilities (because, in the minds of the designers, combat abilities should be fairly expensive and hard to come by, especially combat abilities that let people overcome bad physical ability scores), but they exist.

All the rest of what you said is sulfur.

So, no opinion on the Con == Free Hit Points thing, then? Because those bonus hit points scale with level, just like those free skill points that apparently killed your parents when you were just a boy, causing you to swear an eternal oath of vengeance against them.

 

[Plane Sailing]

EDIT: I completely forgot that INT gives you bonus languages as well!

Just wanted to mention that another thing forgotten is that INT is a prereq for a useful feat chain (expertise/improved disarm/improved trip) so that is an additional reason why strong heroes (or anyone who thinks they might be fighting a lot) might want to have at least a 13 INT.

Cheers

 

[sinmissing]

Each Archetype gets X number of skill points balanced against how quickly they advance in the other 4 character elements, yet bonus Skill Points can accumulate each level because of a high INT, and not just because the character is Smart.

The 6 classes are archetypes. If they are not archtypes, then what are they?

Never have I insisted that you use an example of Weak Smart, Strong Dumb. Use whatever combination of Strong or Smart you wish. I am simply stating that your Intelligence is being applied to learning your class features.

The Strong Hero with a high Intelligence is applying his intellect, better than any other archetype, toward improving his martial skills, leaving him little time for other pursuits. This effort of this is shown by an increase in bab, defense, and hitpoints (mostly BAB), and a reduction in both Skill Points and total Class Skills.

The Smart Hero, with a high Strength has devoted himself to gaining a broad range of knowledge, which apparently leaves him little time for learning combat skills. This is represented in the archetype by lots of Skill points, a low BAB, fewer hit points, and a poor defense. His Strength grants him a raw talent for melee, should he choose to enter it.

Within both classes are a few abilities which allow a character to play against or with type, depending on how you choose to interpret their source. Smart Heroes have the exploit weakness, Strong Heroes have Break Anything, which can be interpretted as using your intellect for identifying weaknesses in structures. Additionally there are feats which allow you to apply different attributes to tasks instead of using defaults.

But I'm not seeing why your argument works in only one direction. Actually, I understand your argument perfectly fine, I just don't agree with it, so please, stop repeating yourself. Having a high INT gets you extra skill points, but this very same exceptional INT cannot grant you an accelerated BAB. The Strong Hero gets what the Smart Hero works diligently for, but not the other way around. If the Smart Hero wants to use his "smarts" in combat he has to spend talents and feats, the Strong Hero just gets free skill points every level.

For the record, I prefer to think that we are arguing tangentally and not against each other. For some reason, you have taken a liking to believing I have some emotional investment in my ideas. Since you do not know me, I'll just let you in on something. I am emotional. I do everything with gusto and approach every idea with a fierce determination to prove or disprove it. I am not heart broken that you disagree with me. Even with your silly jabs and petty humor, I see some of your ideas to have substance. I do not, as you have projected, put emotional investment into perceived facts and am quite happy when I can relieve myself of a misconception.

It's possible we've really crushed everyone's enthusiasm by now. You want to take this off list?