Hidden but Adjacent and attacking :)

[Istar]

Okay what to do with a Cunning Sneak with dark deeds armour and shifting around.

Dark Deeds gives concealment after attacking with CA.
Plan then is to move 3 squares away, through a minor action shift 1, and move, and with Cunning Sneak if you move 3 squares away and are concealed you can make a Stealth check to be hidden.

Next round, as he is hidden, he starts off with CA.

Usually this works for Ranged rogues quite well, however this Rogue is melee based for Pearcing Strike and Iron Armbands.

How best to use these powers and stay in melee with one or likely 2 enemy, to keep CA, and stay hidden.

If I attack at start of chain with CA at the end of my turn, I am concealed, but not hidden.
The next turn can I do the cunning sneak move 3, and make a stealth roll to be hidden, then I do a melee attack from adjacent to the enemy.
Am I still hidden, even though I just attacked him ????

 

[Infiniti2000]

Am I still hidden, even though I just attacked him ????

No. What's more is that once you are hidden, if you have to move in order to attack you are no longer hidden unless you move 3, and then you need another roll.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Okay what to do with a Cunning Sneak with dark deeds armour and shifting around.

Dark Deeds gives concealment after attacking with CA.
Plan then is to move 3 squares away, through a minor action shift 1, and move, and with Cunning Sneak if you move 3 squares away and are concealed you can make a Stealth check to be hidden.

Next round, as he is hidden, he starts off with CA.

Usually this works for Ranged rogues quite well, however this Rogue is melee based for Pearcing Strike and Iron Armbands.

How best to use these powers and stay in melee with one or likely 2 enemy, to keep CA, and stay hidden.

If I attack at start of chain with CA at the end of my turn, I am concealed, but not hidden.
The next turn can I do the cunning sneak move 3, and make a stealth roll to be hidden, then I do a melee attack from adjacent to the enemy.
Am I still hidden, even though I just attacked him ????

IIRC, you can only gain combat advantage from being hidden when you attack an opponent if you move as part of the attack, which in effect requires you to use Deft Strike.

In addition, it's going to be really hard to be "hidden" when next to an opponent. You need improved cover or total concealment to become hidden, then concealment or cover to "maintain" the hidden condition. (At least that's my assumption; I think Cunning Sneak only removes penalties to Stealth for moving and running.)

The situation you're laying out isn't complete. What are you hiding behind that puts you right next to an opponent? A curtain? (That could give you total concealment!)

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Stay out of sight. If, at ANY TIME, you lack at least Cover or Concealment from an enemy, you lose Hidden against that enemy. It doesn't matter if this is your turn or his, or if it's in the middle of a move, or because a Wall got broken down. No Cover and No Concealment = EXPELLED FROM HIDDEN CLUB. Oh, and this means REAL cover - the kind of Cover you get against Ranged attacks by hiding behind an ally doesn't count.

When you do something to lose Hidden, you keep the benefits of being Hidden until the end of that action. So moving out into the open costs you Hidden, but you keep Hidden until the end of the *entire action* - so if your action is Deft Strike, which lets you move *and* attack as part of the same action, you're Hidden during the attack part even though the Move part of it lost you Hidden. Similarly, if you have a power that lets you attack then move, attacking costs you Hidden but you *are* still Hidden during the move, until the full action is over.

 

[the Jester]

IIRC, you can only gain combat advantage from being hidden when you attack an opponent if you move as part of the attack, which in effect requires you to use Deft Strike.

I don't think that's quite right- I believe that if you are hidden and adjacent, you can attack without moving and have CA just fine. It's only if you have to move to attack the foe that you have to do it as a part of the attack action.

If I recall correctly, and if I am understanding everything right.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I don't think that's quite right- I believe that if you are hidden and adjacent, you can attack without moving and have CA just fine. It's only if you have to move to attack the foe that you have to do it as a part of the attack action.

If I recall correctly, and if I am understanding everything right.

Sounds right to me. I'd also note that MP2 provides several 'move plus attack' powers. Gloaming Cut is the main one, though in that case the move/hide comes after the attack. This can still help you out a bunch. Combined with Dark Deeds and your CS feature you can basically attack, shift 3 squares, and kick in your CS feature to hide. Note that you don't have to end up 3 squares FROM your target, just from your starting square. This could put you within 1 square for a Deft Strike the next round for instance, assuming your opponent doesn't move away, and there are other possibilities that would let you move 2 and then still be hidden and attack if you do it right. It is far from guaranteed you can keep this up at all times forever, but you should be able to get CA with this kind of routine say 2 out of 3 rounds. Chances are too that you won't always have to go for the same target each time as your original one will often die in the meantime. Clever use of moving to the right spot could thus let you hit one guy after another with CA. As with any rogue tactical setup you're never totally guaranteed to make it work. Things like Chameleon and whatnot could also be handy tricks that can gain you extra concealment now and then.

 

[Infiniti2000]

In addition, it's going to be really hard to be "hidden" when next to an opponent. You need improved cover or total concealment to become hidden, then concealment or cover to "maintain" the hidden condition. (At least that's my assumption; I think Cunning Sneak only removes penalties to Stealth for moving and running.)http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/25474357/?pg=last

Cunning Sneak allows it for any cover or concealment except for allies:

If you end your movement at least 3 squares away from your starting position, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden if you have any concealment or any cover, except for cover provided by intervening allies.

 

[Istar]

Okay so a few points:

Once I attack I loose my "Hidden" status.
So its best to attack and then move do the hide thing.

But, with Dark Deeds and Cunning Sneak, my next move of 3 squares away could leave me adjacent to an enemy, and if he doesnt move, then I can attack him with CA from hidden, with Piercing Strike.

I am trying to work this to be able to use Piercing Strike and bring Iron Armbands into play.

 

[Istar]

No. What's more is that once you are hidden, if you have to move in order to attack you are no longer hidden unless you move 3, and then you need another roll.

Maybe thats not quite so bad.
You can apply 2 tactics really.

One is the ranged one, where you attack with CA of some sort, and then go and hide a minimum 3 squares away.
Perfect if you are low on health and want to keep away from targetting by the DM.
By the way does enemy know which square you are in ???

And then the melee more attack based tactic.
Where you move and hide, and then attack.

How would this work:
If the previous turn I attacked with CA so I have concealment through Dark Deeds until the end of this turn.
I move a minimum 3 squares plus to a square right adjacent to an enemy.
Make the Stealth Roll granted by Cunning Sneak - even though I am standing right in front of him toe to toe !!!!!!!!!!

Bang - attack with CA due to being hidden, with Piercing Stike and Iron Armbands.

This melee tactical use of Cunning Sneak your position is revealed after you attack.

First option is attack and hide.
Second option is hide and then attack.

Just something to add to your ease to get CA, as at level 8 now I can find most turns, but good to have options.
But this combo gives you the option to be aggressive melee attacker, or hidden stay out of trouble ranged attacker.

When they envisaged Cunning Sneak I cant imagine they considered this would be used in melee situations.

 

[Infiniti2000]

It's okay, but not to my taste for playability. That's lots of rolling. And, once you are hidden, the enemy doesn't know where you are located unless he beat your check. Note that the DM will have to roll opposed spot checks for every bad guy once per round with this tactic.

 

[Istar]

How does this sound from one of the players

It pretty much goes like this:
You say you are moving stealthily into an area that gives you total concealment. At the end of the move you make a stealth check verses all enemy's passive perceptions. If you succeed the you are hidden from all enemies.

Hidden means you can not be seen or heard i.e. Enemies do not know your exact location. You can remain hidden by doing nothing or moving upto 2 squares and you do not need to make another stealth check. If you move further or attack or no longer have total concealment the you have to make another stealth check to remain hidden or become hidden again (which ever is the most appropriate.

Remember that if you have total concealment because you are behind a wall or object no matter how good your stealth check is if an enemy moves into a position where you no longer have concealment (note not total concealment) then you will no longer be hidden.

The key factors are stealth v passive perception and total concealment.