Hide and Move Silently in Actual Play

[Felix]

... right up to the moment when they get written up in two-column, 9-point serif font. Then you love them with all of your body including your pee-pee, right?

9-point serif font wouldn't make me love it even with your pee-pee.

First, tell me why your characters routinely go around trying to hide while wearing bells.

First, tell me if you're going to be trying to hide while wearing bells.

You're telling me that though you're able to come up with any circumstance modifiers appropriate for the situation, you can't think of a reason someone would be very very good at hiding but not be able to move silently? Apply that cleverness of yours that spits out "pee-pee" zingers at every opportunity.

Of course you can reliably predict it. All the numbers I would use with a putative unified Stealth/Perception skill framework will be written down. They just aren't written down HERE.

Then by all means: write them down.

 

[hong]

9-point serif font wouldn't make me love it even with your pee-pee.

Sure, you say that NOW.

You're telling me that though you're able to come up with any circumstance modifiers appropriate for the situation, you can't think of a reason someone would be very very good at hiding but not be able to move silently?

No, no. YOU brought up the example of someone trying to hide while wearing bells, so YOU tell me why I should take your stupid strawman seriously. Because in just about all the examples of actual gameplay I've seen (or heard about), people actively trying to hide will also be trying to be silent. If you want to claim that people in your campaigns actually try to hide while wearing bells, go right ahead.

Apply that cleverness of yours that spits out "pee-pee" zingers at every opportunity.

Oh, my stars and garters.

Then by all means: write them down.

Why? You just said you're not going to love them with all of your body, not even with your pee-pee. Pearls before swine, and all that.

 

[darthkilmor]

You heardthat? That white noise? Maybe your computer; maybe your radio; maybe the dishwasher running. Because you can hear those sounds are you so sure there isn't a 15' ft radius of silence in the corner?

I can understand if you see a vase fall and no crashing sound reaches your ears; or if the 15ft radius envelops you; but to know that there is an area of silence because, "That 15ft radius over there isn't making as much paint-peeling noise as usual!"?

Because no one has ever uttered the phrase "Its quiet....Too Quiet...".

But again, put some scale to what you said. 15. Foot. Radius. Thats big enough to fill most rooms you'd be in.

If you get a skillcheck to notice someone being Invisible, you should get one for noticing something silenced.
Of course if you could simply have silence not be an emanation but target a character like invisibility does, some of this washes out.
And I guess it'd also depend on how you view sounds coming from behind something silenced.

10 ft hall
------------------------------------------
you { silence } noise
------------------------------------------

Do you hear the noise? If not, then I'd say yes, you should have a Chance to notice "Hey, that drip-drip-drip stopped...and I can't hear that soft howl of wind...."

sorry if this is a bit rambly

 

[Felix]

No, no. YOU brought up the example of someone trying to hide while wearing bells, so YOU tell me why I should take your stupid strawman seriously. Because in just about all the examples of actual gameplay I've seen (or heard about), people actively trying to hide will also be trying to be silent. If you want to claim that people in your campaigns actually try to hide while wearing bells, go right ahead.

Shackles make noise. Escaped prisoners in shackles make noise if they move, but don't get far from the prison if they don't. Choices to make, eh?

If you're going to throw your pee-pee around these boards, then allow others the benefit of hyperbole.

Why? You just said you're not going to love them with all of your body, not even with your pee-pee. Pearls before swine, and all that.

"I'll have a problem with this because I won't know what you're going to do."

"No you won't because I'll have it written down."

"Ok, let me see what you would write so I can see if that list is any good."

"No. My stuff is too good to show you."

Thanks for the discussion hong. Get in a zinger while you've the chance.

 

[Felix]

Because no one has ever uttered the phrase "Its quiet....Too Quiet...".

Remind me which time that was said due to a 15' sphere of magical silence instead of a something so terrifying it had driven off the wildlife.

But again, put some scale to what you said. 15. Foot. Radius. Thats big enough to fill most rooms you'd be in.

Yep. And if you walk into that corner of the room you'll notice that something isn't right. A silenced area existing shouldn't merit an automatic check: there should be a reason you may suspect that such a silence exists.

Next time you're outside, try to figure out which sphere of 15' radius in the air is making the most noise. That wind has to be coming from somewhere, yeah? But without any meaningful prescision for the source of what should be a sound, you shouldn't know that there isn't one.

If you get a skillcheck to notice someone being Invisible, you should get one for noticing something silenced.
Of course if you could simply have silence not be an emanation but target a character like invisibility does, some of this washes out.
And I guess it'd also depend on how you view sounds coming from behind something silenced.

10 ft hall
------------------------------------------
you { silence } noise
------------------------------------------

Do you hear the noise? If not, then I'd say yes, you should have a Chance to notice "Hey, that drip-drip-drip stopped...and I can't hear that soft howl of wind...."

sorry if this is a bit rambly

If there's a reason to suspect Silence then by all means; seeing a statue crash and not make a sound is very suspicious. But not hearing the wind howling? How do you know the wind is blowing outside while you're in the dungeon?

 

[hong]

Shackles make noise. Escaped prisoners in shackles make noise if they move, but don't get far from the prison if they don't. Choices to make, eh?

Do your characters often find themselves in the circumstance of being shackled?

If you're going to throw your pee-pee around these boards, then allow others the benefit of hyperbole.

Naturally, but you must also accept that I do this better than you.

"I'll have a problem with this because I won't know what you're going to do."

"No you won't because I'll have it written down."

"Ok, let me see what you would write so I can see if that list is any good."

"No. My stuff is too good to show you."

Thanks for the discussion hong. Get in a zinger while you've the chance.

The point, wannabe-zinger-boy, is that nothing in principle stops a skillset with combined Stealth and Perception skills from also including an exhaustive and precisely-defined list of modifiers for those skills. That the d20 ruleset as it currently stands has separate Hide, MS, Spot and Listen skills is entirely beside the point. It could just as easily be recreated as a d20.1 ruleset with Stealth and Perception, and still retain its status as an exhaustive and precisely-defined ruleset. Your objections to combining these skills are entirely groundless, and ultimately based on nothing more than an undying love of two-column, 9-point serif type.

Happy now?

 

[Felix]

Do your characters often find themselves in the circumstance of being shackled?

I'm suprised you think it's so rare: your PCs don't get captured ever?

And occasionally they wear armor and don't want to be heard. Clanks, armor does.

Naturally, but you must also accept that I do this better than you.

I suppose 13,000 posts of comebacks at people telling you to shut up would hone your skill, sure.

The point, wannabe-zinger-boy, is that nothing in principle stops a skillset with combined Stealth and Perception skills from also including an exhaustive and precisely-defined list of modifiers for those skills. That the d20 ruleset as it currently stands has separate Hide, MS, Spot and Listen skills is entirely beside the point. It could just as easily be recreated as a d20.1 ruleset with Stealth and Perception, and still retain its status as an exhaustive and precisely-defined ruleset. Your objections to combining these skills are entirely groundless, and ultimately based on nothing more than an undying love of two-column, 9-point serif type.

The counterpoint is that simply because a mechanic can be done does not mean that it is a good idea. Can you do it? Yes; I said as much in my first post. But what purpose does it serve when the only appreciable benefit is to reduce the number of die rolls by 1, and the cost is the abstraction of Sight and Sound, two remarkably different senses? Don't like rolling 2d20? By all means: print yourself a neat little comprehensive list in the font of your choice with modifiers for every circumstance and balancing them against each other. I'll spend that time rolling another d20.

Happy now?

Ever since I realized my mistake was taking you seriously.

Kill Things.

Take stuff.

Employ hongbat.

 

[hong]

I'm suprised you think it's so rare: your PCs don't get captured ever?

The occasions on which my PCs have been captured can be counted on the fingers of one hand. That's in ~15 years of D&D. I am quite happy to live with a ruleset that doesn't explicitly take into account something that happens with that frequency.

And occasionally they wear armor and don't want to be heard. Clanks, armor does.

And if they don't want to be heard, the chances are very good that they also don't want to be seen. Do pay attention to the thread.

I suppose 13,000 posts of comebacks at people telling you to shut up would hone your skill, sure.

And they all did that better than you.

The counterpoint is that simply because a mechanic can be done does not mean that it is a good idea. Can you do it? Yes; I said as much in my first post. But what purpose does it serve when the only appreciable benefit is to reduce the number of die rolls by 1,

And the reduction in the cost of building stealth/perception-focused characters. And the removal of superfluous complexity, which can only be good in a ruleset already oft-criticised for being excessively complicated. And the removal of another avenue by which people can shoot themselves in the foot, by creating characters that are good at one but not the other of the paired skills. And the removal of another excuse for people to whine about how their characters got teh shaft.

Shall I go on?

and the cost is the abstraction of Sight and Sound, two remarkably different senses?

Which, in game terms, are going to be used in conjunction with each other nearly all the time.

Don't like rolling 2d20? By all means: print yourself a neat little comprehensive list in the font of your choice with modifiers for every circumstance and balancing them against each other.

... which would be, essentially, the same size as the list that exists now (the fact that the current list is implied and distributed over several places in the rules text, rather than explicit and all in one place, is irrelevant to the point at hand). And thus in practical terms, exactly the same time would be required to digest its contents as for the list that exists now. Your point being?

I'll spend that time rolling another d20.

Far be it from me to stop you cluttering up your life. Isn't cognitive dissonance a wonderful thing?

Ever since I realized my mistake was taking you seriously.

Well, you don't have to take me seriously if you don't want.

Employ hongbat.

Yes, you say that NOW.

 

[darthkilmor]

If there's a reason to suspect Silence then by all means; seeing a statue crash and not make a sound is very suspicious. But not hearing the wind howling? How do you know the wind is blowing outside while you're in the dungeon?

How do you know there's an invisible character nearby ? Why should you get a check for that and not for silence?

 

[Water Bob]

1. Lidda is sneaking through the woods. She spots a lone orc guard leaning against a tree in a clearing. Lidda decides to creep up behind the orc and stab him in the back. This is a Move Silently check, right?

1. Maximum visiblity in light woods is 3d6 x10 feet. Let's call it 100 feet.

2. GM has determined that Lidda sees Orc, but Orc has not seen Lidda.

3. How far apart are Lidda and the Orc at the start of the encounter? Roll a Spot check for Lidda to determine this, per the encounter rule: d20 + Spot skill x 10 feet. But, this total cannot exceed line-of-sight of 100 feet (so, we consider any total of 11+ as a total of 10, starting the encounter at maximum visible range. A roll of 8 means the encounter starts at 80 feet. A roll of 14 means that encounter starts at LOS, which is 100 feet. We roll and get a total of 5, which means Lidda saw the Orc at 50 feet away.

3a. If the GM knows how far the orc is from Lidda, then apply a -1 penalty per 10 foot to the throw. If the GM doesn't know, then use the above method.

4. The orc has his back to Lidda, so he will need to use his Listen check in order to catch her sneaking up on him. Since the orc is looking elsewhere, the -5 distraction penalty applies. Lidda starts the encounter 50 feet away, so the first Listen check is made at a -5 distance penalty. If the orc's Listen skill gives him a +1 modifier, then his passive Listen is (Taking 10) 10 + 1 Skill - 5 Distraction - 5 Distance + 2 undergrowth, for a DC 3.

4a. Lidda's Speed is 30. This is halved for harsh terrain. This is halved again to avoid movement penalties to her Move Silenlty check. She can move 7 feet per round. Let's adjust this to 10 feet per round for easy figuring. She needs to cross 50 feet. So, this will take her 5 rounds.

Lidda's Move Silently: d20 + 6 skill


Check 1: 50-40 feet. Move Silently vs. DC 3.

Check 2: 40-30 feet. Move Silently vs. DC 4.

Check 3: 30-20 feet. Move Silently vs. DC 5.

Check 4: 20-10 feet. Move Silently vs. DC 6.

Check 5: 10-5 feet. Move silently vs. DC 7.

This means that Lidda can automatically sneak up on the orc.