Hide and Move Silently in Actual Play

[hong]

Add another level of mechanics so that you may expunge one small part of the existing mechanic?

What, "the character perceiving gets +2 to their roll because it's easier to notice someone than to remain perfectly silent and hidden" counts as "another level of mechanics"? Especially when you're deleting something like half a page of text (2 full skill descriptions) into the bargain?

Not to mention that there's already a precedent for this, as noted above.

My DM must lay more ambushes for the PCs than yours does.

If your DM really wants you to get snuck upon, you have no hope, implied probabilities or no.

 

[Felix]

What, "the character perceiving gets +2 to their roll because it's easier to notice someone than to remain perfectly silent and hidden" counts as "another level of mechanics"? Especially when you're deleting something like half a page of text (2 full skill descriptions) into the bargain?

Not to mention that there's already a precedent for this, as noted above.

Because you then have to deal with the situations where one sense is negated by spells like Invisibility or conditions like Deafness.

If your DM really wants you to get snuck upon, you have no hope, implied probabilities or no.

If it's the DM that decides it and not the skill rolls, then why bother having skills at all? The illusion of choice?

I'd rather have my implied probabilities and believe that the DM rolls for his NPCs.

 

[hong]

Because you then have to deal with the situations where one sense is negated by spells like Invisibility or conditions like Deafness.

And for these spells, you can just as easily treat it as a -10 penalty to Perception. Or -20, if you think that's not a big enough number. Again, as was said previously.

If it's the DM that decides it and not the skill rolls, then why bother having skills at all? The illusion of choice?

The DM has the ability to set the skills at whatever level is required to bring about a desired probability of success on the rolls, whether that is under the current system, or a putative system with unified Stealth and Perception rolls. To spell things out in numbing detail.

I'd rather have my implied probabilities and believe that the DM rolls for his NPCs.

The DM can roll for the NPCs AND give you a break on the numbers, as easy as pie. What level are you? 10th, with +18 on Perception? Well, to appease Mr I-Don't-Want-Ninjae-Sneaking-Up-On-Me, those rogues are going to be 8th, with +16 on Stealth. That's +2 to you straight away, without even adding any modifiers.

 

[Aeolien]

Close your eyes. Really: close 'em.
...
Ok, now you can open 'em. Not that you can read this since your eyes are closed, right?

You heard that? That white noise? Maybe your computer; maybe your radio; maybe the dishwasher running. Because you can hear those sounds are you so sure there isn't a 15' ft radius of silence in the corner?

I can understand if you see a vase fall and no crashing sound reaches your ears; or if the 15ft radius envelops you; but to know that there is an area of silence because, "That 15ft radius over there isn't making as much paint-peeling noise as usual!"?

That's a really good point. You can't notice not noticing something.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

If they're seperate skills, then there will be different probabilities to see or hear the sneaker. See [Maths] post upthread. It is most certainly not the same thing.

My comment referred to whether the effect is folding skills, or granting multiple skills with the same spent point. Its semantics. I'm aware the change makes it somewhat easier to sneak up on things - that was actually part of the intent, since its rediculously hard to get into position as is.

Why try to jury-rig the combined-skills model to do what the seperate-skills model already does naturally?

Because certain things dont deserve to be skills in their own right. Also, we changed it to encourage a certain mode of play. The Athletics skill covers climbing, swimming and jumping. We wanted characters to be more mobile and active, to make it easier to swing from chandoliers and such. I guess I could have kept them separate, and given people more skill points per level, but really the "stunt" guy is still paying too much of their character resources to do what he needs to do. As it stands, nearly every character has ranks of athletics, and the game feels more action oriented.

Similarly, notice covers your other senses. Taste, smell and touch. It provides a nice way to reflect that someone is super observent aside from a flat wisdom check.

 

[Darklone]

Because you then have to deal with the situations where one sense is negated by spells like Invisibility or conditions like Deafness.

See above, Invis does NOT negate Spot.

Pretty often Spot can be more useful than See Invis.

 

[Felix]

See above, Invis does NOT negate Spot.

Pretty often Spot can be more useful than See Invis.

Ok, pitch darkness.

Not that adventurers ever bother to carry light sources...

 

[hong]

Ok, pitch darkness.

-4 to Perception.

Are we done with the exhaustive list yet?

 

[Felix]

-4 to Perception.

Are we done with the exhaustive list yet?

I don't know if I'm supposed to be impressed with your ability to apply circumstance modifiers or what, but that's just the problem: the players won't know what penalty or benefit you're going to apply until you do so; I wouldn't know what to expect from you as my DM. And I hate that. With seperate skills, I know that if I am exceptional at hiding but am waking around wearing bells what kind of effect that will have on which skills, and I'll have my character act appropriately. With you I can't reliably predict it.

So go on pulling out circumstance modifiers from whereever you get them to your hearts content.

 

[hong]

I don't know if I'm supposed to be impressed with your ability to apply circumstance modifiers or what, but that's just the problem: the players won't know what penalty or benefit you're going to apply until you do so; I wouldn't know what to expect from you as my DM.

Nonsense. Invisibility already has modifiers for Spot checks; deafness already has modifiers for Listen checks (you automatically fail, which is a "modifier" of sorts). It is but a moment's work to replace those (and others) with new modifiers, tailored for the context of unified Stealth/Perception skills. It is but another moment's work to write them up in two-column, 9-point serif font, thus providing the clarity and precision necessary for calculations of doubt and uncertainty.

And I hate that.

... right up to the moment when they get written up in two-column, 9-point serif font. Then you love them with all of your body including your pee-pee, right?

With seperate skills, I know that if I am exceptional at hiding but am waking around wearing bells

First, tell me why your characters routinely go around trying to hide while wearing bells.

what kind of effect that will have on which skills, and I'll have my character act appropriately. With you I can't reliably predict it.

Of course you can reliably predict it. All the numbers I would use with a putative unified Stealth/Perception skill framework will be written down. They just aren't written down HERE.

So go on pulling out circumstance modifiers from whereever you get them to your hearts content.

First, tell me if you're going to be trying to hide while wearing bells.