Hide and Move Silently in Actual Play

[Drew]

I've been thinking about Hide and Move Silently in actual game use, and I wanted to compare experiences and see how others actually do things. I'm looking to justify the existence of these as separate skills, rather than combining them into a Stealth skill opposed by a Notice skill. I'm looking to see if there is a true gamist reason for keeping these skills separate.

To get things rolling, how do you handle the following:

1. Lidda is sneaking through the woods. She spots a lone orc guard leaning against a tree in a clearing. Lidda decides to creep up behind the orc and stab him in the back. This is a Move Silently check, right? What if the orc is looking in Lidda's general direction. Does that change things to a Hide check, render Lidda's sneaking impossible, require two checks, or what?

2. Lidda is sneaking up on a hobgoblin fortress. There are hobgoblins on the ramparts on general alert. As Lidda creeps up to the fortress, do you call for Hide, Move Silently, both?

3. Lidda is scouting ahead of the party down the dungeon corridor. There is an ogre in a room at the end of the hall in a brightly lit room. If Lidda successfully Moves Silently down the hall, can she get the drop on the Ogre? Do you require a second Move Silently, a Hide check, or do you just assume the first covered things? What if she fails the Move Silently check down the hall. The ogre now knows SOMETHING is moving down the hall. Does Lidda have any chance of sneaking into the room now?

What if the room were shadowy? Would you give her a Hide check to keep to the shadows and sneak up on the monster? If you would, what advantage does the Ogre get for hearing Lidda?

 

[Stalker0]

For playability reasons, I completely agree that hide/MS should be one skill. In many cases, both are rolled.

There are only 2 reasons to keep them apart.

1) There are rare times when one is needed but not the other. If you have a silence spell on you, you need hide but not MS, etc.

2) Hide/MS are generally much more powerful skills than most skills. They are used frequently and have strong consequences as opposed to skills like appraise, etc. Having them combined into 1 makes them even more powerful.

Overall, I don't think these are strong enough reasons to keep them apart. I've combined them in my game, and have had no problems.

 

[Drowbane]

my group combines Hide and Move Silently into Sneak (aka Stealth) and Listen and Spot into Perception.

We also eliminate "class skills / cross-class skills". You have X number of skill points, spend them as you like.

So while Stealth and Perception are more powerful than thier core counter-parts, alot more characters have ranks in them so it all seems to balance out.

We combine a few other skills... but they escape me atm.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Powerful? I think in all the years I've been playing, maybe twice has a sneaky PC been able to creep up and do the Navy SEALS thing on an enemy.

It always goes one of 3 ways:

DM: "ok, roll Hide and Move Silently to sneak up on the Warrior1 Hobgoblin guard."

PC: "*S#@t, he saw me"

PC: "S#@t, I missed him"

PC: "S#@t, that hit didn't kill him"


As a level 1 Whisper Gnome Rogue I got to snipe on an orc one round. Couldn't even kill him with the follow-up shot.

Maybe once Shadowdancer and Greater Invisible come around, they're more likely to happen, though See Invisible and Blindsense come along earlier anyway.

I do, however, like the idea of combining a few skills, particularly Spot/Listen, Open Lock/Disable Device, and Hide/move Silently.

Your Sneak vs their Perception and flavor text as to which sense they use to become aware of you, based on the method of approach/ nature of the observer/ most fun for all involved.

 

[pawsplay]

1. Lidda is sneaking through the woods. She spots a lone orc guard leaning against a tree in a clearing. Lidda decides to creep up behind the orc and stab him in the back. This is a Move Silently check, right? What if the orc is looking in Lidda's general direction. Does that change things to a Hide check, render Lidda's sneaking impossible, require two checks, or what?

Ordinarily, it's a Move Silently check. If the orc is looking around, Lidda also has to make a Hide check, and likely at a penalty.

2. Lidda is sneaking up on a hobgoblin fortress. There are hobgoblins on the ramparts on general alert. As Lidda creeps up to the fortress, do you call for Hide, Move Silently, both?

Hide. I might ask for a Move Silently check if there is someone on guard with an insanely high enough Listen to detect her.

3. Lidda is scouting ahead of the party down the dungeon corridor. There is an ogre in a room at the end of the hall in a brightly lit room. If Lidda successfully Moves Silently down the hall, can she get the drop on the Ogre? Do you require a second Move Silently, a Hide check, or do you just assume the first covered things? What if she fails the Move Silently check down the hall. The ogre now knows SOMETHING is moving down the hall. Does Lidda have any chance of sneaking into the room now?

Move Silently. At the point at which she can be seen, there is no chance of hiding.

What if the room were shadowy? Would you give her a Hide check to keep to the shadows and sneak up on the monster? If you would, what advantage does the Ogre get for hearing Lidda?

If the ogre can hear her, there is no surprise round, as something is amiss.

 

[Vegepygmy]

To get things rolling, how do you handle the following:

1. Lidda is sneaking through the woods. She spots a lone orc guard leaning against a tree in a clearing. Lidda decides to creep up behind the orc and stab him in the back. This is a Move Silently check, right?

It's a Move Silently and Hide. (Presumably, Lidda has already declared that she is doing both, since she was "sneaking" through the woods.) It remains possible for the orc to Spot Lidda, even though he hasn't done so yet.

What if the orc is looking in Lidda's general direction.

That's what the orc's Spot check result tells you: was he looking in Lidda's general direction?

2. Lidda is sneaking up on a hobgoblin fortress. There are hobgoblins on the ramparts on general alert. As Lidda creeps up to the fortress, do you call for Hide, Move Silently, both?

Both.

3. Lidda is scouting ahead of the party down the dungeon corridor. There is an ogre in a room at the end of the hall in a brightly lit room. If Lidda successfully Moves Silently down the hall, can she get the drop on the Ogre? Do you require a second Move Silently, a Hide check, or do you just assume the first covered things?

One Move Silently check, and a Hide check when Lidda reaches the point where she can see the ogre (and the ogre can possibly see her).

What if she fails the Move Silently check down the hall. The ogre now knows SOMETHING is moving down the hall. Does Lidda have any chance of sneaking into the room now?

She has no chance of surprising the ogre, but she could possibly "sneak" into the room (invisibly, for example).

What if the room were shadowy? Would you give her a Hide check to keep to the shadows and sneak up on the monster?

If the shadows provide concealment and the monster has no senses that negate the shadows, Lidda can certainly use the shadows to Hide from the monster. She still cannot surprise the monster, but she might be able to get close enough to attack him while he's flat-footed.

If you would, what advantage does the Ogre get for hearing Lidda?

He gets the advantage of awareness, which negates surprise. He also is probably going to actively investigate the unexpected sound he heard; the exact result of that depends a lot on what Lidda does.

 

[pawsplay]

The reason the distinction is important is because some things are invisible but can be heard (invisible ogre mages) while others can be seen but not heard (incorporeal undead, creatures in a silenced area).

 

[Drew]

Thanks for the replies. I'm gleaning that, all things being equal, most of you require two rolls to do the (nicely put) "Navy Seal thing". Being invisible or silenced just negates one of the two rolls.

Interesting, because I usually call for one roll or the other, which is why I thought combining them might be a good idea. My real concern was the number of skill points it would free up for the already skill point heavy rogue.

The reason the distinction is important is because some things are invisible but can be heard (invisible ogre mages) while others can be seen but not heard (incorporeal undead, creatures in a silenced area).

That explains why there is a distinction, but it doesn't really say why that distinction is important. Other than governing which skill you're using in opposition (i.e. Listen or Spot), why does it matter mechanically? In either case, one side is rolling dice to gain some kind of advantage and the other is rolling dice to negate that advantage, right? Whether its Spot or Listen seems like needless detail to me. Couldn't the same effect be achieved by simply granting a bonus to the Stealth (MS and Hide combined) roll of the invisible or silenced guy?

 

[pawsplay]

You would have to define the difference in difficult to detect a silent or invisible foe. How difficult is it to "see" an invisible opponent who can be heard?

 

[Kmart Kommando]

You would have to define the difference in difficult to detect a silent or invisible foe. How difficult is it to "see" an invisible opponent who can be heard?

uhh, I'd say +20 higher than if they weren't invisible.