Hide and Move Silently in Actual Play

[moritheil]

Your examples all seem to call for both to be rolled.

My understanding is that sneaking around is so valuable that it is worth two skill points instead of just one.

 

[Felix]

No real valid reason to keep them apart. (kind of like how there's no more intuit direction imho).

Blind people.
Deaf people.
Invisibility.
Silence.
Neon signs.

These are not valid?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Blind people.
Deaf people.
Invisibility.
Silence.
Neon signs.

These are not valid?

We have certain skills with sub skills. The skill is stealth - you buy ranks in that, and typically roll that. You also have a hide and move silently score, which might come into play in certain situations.

Similarly, Notice has search, spot, and listen sub skills. A race might get a bonus on one, that doesnt apply to another.

Balance and Tumble are both in acrobatics. A 4 legged creature gets a bonus to Balance, but not Tumble (or Acrobatics).

 

[hong]

I don't see any real problem with combining Hide/MS and Spot/Listen. If necessary, you can just assign a penalty (-2 or higher) to the roll if the person can't do one or the other, eg trying to notice someone who's also silenced.

 

[Felix]

We have certain skills with sub skills. The skill is stealth - you buy ranks in that, and typically roll that. You also have a hide and move silently score, which might come into play in certain situations.

Similarly, Notice has search, spot, and listen sub skills. A race might get a bonus on one, that doesnt apply to another.

Balance and Tumble are both in acrobatics. A 4 legged creature gets a bonus to Balance, but not Tumble (or Acrobatics).

Which is to say that they remain seperate skills, but a rank in one immediately buys you a rank in the others.

 

[darthkilmor]

Blind people.
Deaf people.
Invisibility.
Silence.
Neon signs.

These are not valid?

Nope
Also, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!
I'd say there situations that would require arbitration and or something worked out for them. Honestly I've not ran these games much with the hide + MS combined to run into any problems yet.

Ok so I think silence is a good point. For silence, there probably should be some check to notice the complete lack of sound coming from an area, especially the closer you are to the area affected. Invisibilty has skillcheck ways to be noticed, so should silence.

 

[The Souljourner]

Combining them makes a ton of sense. None of the classes get "enough" skill points, and anyone who calls the rogue skillpoint heavy hasn't really played one in a campaign where you need all those skills.

Invisibility can still give +20 to hide, but won't affect people hearing you... no big deal, if the orc guard rolls above your stealth roll but below what he needs to see you, he hears something but can't see anything... pretty much the same as if the two rolls were separate, you just don't have to roll twice as often, and the skillful classes save a few skillpoints, which I think is a good thing.

-Nate

 

[Felix]

I'd say there situations that would require arbitration and or something worked out for them. Honestly I've not ran these games much with the hide + MS combined to run into any problems yet.

Sure: you've got to plan ahead to work around them, or contrive some arbitrary solution to a problem that the combination of skills created. Have at it if you like.

Ok so I think silence is a good point. For silence, there probably should be some check to notice the complete lack of sound coming from an area, especially the closer you are to the area affected. Invisibilty has skillcheck ways to be noticed, so should silence.

Close your eyes. Really: close 'em.

...

Ok, now you can open 'em. Not that you can read this since your eyes are closed, right?

You heardthat? That white noise? Maybe your computer; maybe your radio; maybe the dishwasher running. Because you can hear those sounds are you so sure there isn't a 15' ft radius of silence in the corner?

I can understand if you see a vase fall and no crashing sound reaches your ears; or if the 15ft radius envelops you; but to know that there is an area of silence because, "That 15ft radius over there isn't making as much paint-peeling noise as usual!"?

 

[hong]

You heardthat? That white noise? Maybe your computer; maybe your radio; maybe the dishwasher running. Because you can hear those sounds are you so sure there isn't a 15' ft radius of silence in the corner?

I can understand if you see a vase fall and no crashing sound reaches your ears; or if the 15ft radius envelops you; but to know that there is an area of silence because, "That 15ft radius over there isn't making as much paint-peeling noise as usual!"?

In the vast majority of in-game situations where people need to make rolls to either hear or see something, there will also be another roll to do the other thing as well. The point is that from a GAMING perspective, treating these skills as separate just adds complexity, for little practical gain. The fact that from a REALISM perspective they involve different senses is not at issue.

 

[Felix]

Combining them makes a ton of sense. None of the classes get "enough" skill points, and anyone who calls the rogue skillpoint heavy hasn't really played one in a campaign where you need all those skills.

So purchasing both Hide and Move Silently is too expensive. Ok. So don't max them out.

When you're sneaking you'll be able to take 10; it's super easy to get your skill checks up to +10 by 4th level: guards will need to beat a 20 to see or hear you. Stop maxing them and put those skill points into the other skills that you want.

I've played a rogue; I say they're skillpoint heavy; I don't have a problem with the idea that any one rogue can't do everything.

You want a mechanic?

Open Lock
Disable Device
Search
Use Magic Device
Craft (something)​

You want a catburgular?

Climb
Balance
Use Rope
Hide
Move Silently
Listen
Search
Open Lock​

You want a scout?

Hide
Move Silently
Spot
Listen
Survival (cross)
Climb
Tumble
Use Rope​

You want a con artist?

Bluff
Intimidate
Diplomacy
Sense Motive
Knowledge (Local)
Sleight of Hand
Gather Information
Perform (something)​

No rogue is going to be able to fit every job, and the problems presented by your DM that require skills are not all round holes for your round-peg rogue. Sometimes you bring the wrong set of skills to the table, or you bring a wider array of less focused skills. You think all rogues *need* Hide and Move Silently? Then give the rogue 2 more skill points. It'll do the same thing without the needless complications that blind people present.