Hide and Move Silently in Actual Play

[Felix]

The point is that from a GAMING perspective, treating these skills as separate just adds complexity, for little practical gain.

Unless by some circumstance the character's ability at one skill is not the same as the other. And if all it costs to avoid that potential problem is to roll another die, force rogues to choose their skills carefully, and by happy coincidence model reality more closely, then the benefit is worth the cost.

 

[hong]

Unless by some circumstance the character's ability at one skill is not the same as the other. And if all it costs to avoid that potential problem is to roll another die, force rogues to choose their skills carefully, and by happy coincidence model reality more closely, then the benefit is worth the cost.

And again, in the vast majority of cases I've seen, people who are good at one of Hide or MS will also be good at the other. Having only one skill is pretty much useless; you need both if you're going to sneak effectively. It's not quite so strong for Spot and Listen, because some classes only get one skill, but it's still pretty strong. If the correlation is strong enough, that indicates you can save some complexity by combining them into one skill. Like I said above, circumstance penalties can easily handle situations where one sense or the other is inhibited, if plausibility is required.

No, I really don't care that much about exhaustive modelling of reality. I'd rather get on with playing swordsages who can shoot little hadokens at people.

 

[Felix]

No, I really don't care that much about exhaustive modelling of reality. I'd rather get on with playing swordsages who can shoot little hadokens at people.

Naturally. And I like that it's bloody hard for ninjagoblins to sneak up behind my swordsage and make me feel like a mook in a Metal Gear game.

 

[hong]

Naturally. And I like that it's bloody hard for ninjagoblins to sneak up behind my swordsage and make me feel like a mook in a Metal Gear game.

And how is this changed by replacing two rolls with one?

 

[Felix]

And how is this changed by replacing two rolls with one?

If the two are combined, I have only one chance to beat his roll. I either notice him or I don't.

With to seperate rolls I have two opportunites and three of the four possible outcomes lead to my notice of him: I can spot him, but not hear him; hear him but not spot him; hear him and spot him; or neither hear nor spot him. This increases my overall likelyhood of being aware and tossing off a haduken before he can stabbity me.

---

[Maths]

Assume bonuses to skills that render a 50% chance to notice him on one roll.

Combined: I'll notice him 50% of the time.
Seperate: I'll notice him 75% of the time.


Assume bonuses to skills that render a 40% chance to notice him on one roll.

Combined: I'll notice him 40% of the time.
Seperate: I'll notice him 64% of the time.


Assume bonuses to skills that render a 30% chance to notice him on one roll.

Combined: I'll notice him 30% of the time.
Seperate: I'll notice him 49% of the time.


Assume bonuses to skills that render a 20% chance to notice him on one roll.

Combined: I'll notice him 20% of the time.
Seperate: I'll notice him 36% of the time.


Assume bonuses to skills that render a 10% chance to notice him on one roll.

Combined: I'll notice him 10% of the time.
Seperate: I'll notice him 19% of the time.


Assume bonuses to skills that render a 5% chance to notice him on one roll.

Combined: I'll notice him 5% of the time.
Seperate: I'll notice him 10% of the time.

[/Maths]

---

The upshot is that the more skilled the sneaker is relative to the snook-upon, the more it benefits the snook-upon to get two rolls. This makes it harder to sneak up on people. No, you can't Solid Snake a fortress; folks are going to have a harder time doing that to you as well.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Which is to say that they remain seperate skills, but a rank in one immediately buys you a rank in the others.

6 of one, half dozen of the other.

 

[hong]

If the two are combined, I have only one chance to beat his roll. I either notice him or I don't.

With to seperate rolls I have two opportunites to notice him: I can spot him, but not hear him; hear him but not spot him; hear him and spot him; or neither hear nor spot him. This increases my overall likelyhood of being aware and tossing off a haduken before he can stabbity me.

This is easily handled with a bonus to the notice roll, and/or a penalty to the stealth roll. In fact, there's already a precedent for this. When using Escape Artist to escape from being tied up, you roll against Use Rope. However the DC is increased by +10 because it's easier to bind someone than to escape later.

Of course, it could also be argued that stealth-heavy characters should not be unduly penalised for exercising their schtick. Giving out excessive bonuses to notice sneaky people just means less reason to play ninjae, so perhaps not having any bonuses is the fairest solution for everyone.

 

[Felix]

6 of one, half dozen of the other.

If they're seperate skills, then there will be different probabilities to see or hear the sneaker. See [Maths] post upthread. It is most certainly not the same thing.

Of course, it could also be argued that stealth-heavy characters should not be unduly penalised for exercising their schtick. Giving out excessive bonuses to notice sneaky people just means less reason to play ninjae, so perhaps not having any bonuses is the fairest solution for everyone.

Why try to jury-rig the combined-skills model to do what the seperate-skills model already does naturally?

No unearned bonuses (synergy, feat, ability, and skill ranks, etc) and no undeserved penalties (though you would retain the circumstance modifiers according to the environment). It'll be harder to be sneaky with two rolls, but that's ultimately a good thing.

 

[hong]

Why try to jury-rig the combined-skills model to do what the seperate-skills model already does naturally?

So that you can get rid of an extraneous skill, duh.

No unearned bonuses (synergy, feat, ability, and skill ranks, etc) and no undeserved penalties (though you would retain the circumstance modifiers according to the environment). It'll be harder to be sneaky with two rolls, but that's ultimately a good thing.

Not if you're trying to be sneaky, it's not.

 

[Felix]

So that you can get rid of an extraneous skill, duh.

Add another level of mechanics so that you may expunge one small part of the existing mechanic?

Not if you're trying to be sneaky, it's not.

My DM must lay more ambushes for the PCs than yours does.