Nail
First Post
Monte Cook had it right, I think: combine Hide and Move Silently skills into one skill. But he didn't follow through; you need to change the "opposed skills" as well (Spot & Listen).
In brief, we've got three skills, new or revised: Sneak (formerly Hide and Move Silently), Spot (revised a bit, especially with respect to invisible creatures), and Sense (includes all non-visual senses, including Listen, Blindsense, Scent...).
Our game is futzing with this, and I appreciate your input. Have you used the Sneak skill for awhile? Any problems?
Our group discussed some of these changes here. The "Hide while attacking Shadowdancer" thread was also formative/helpful.
Here's the revised and added skill descriptions:
SENSE (WIS)
The Sense skill represents what all of your non-visual senses tell you about your surroundings. These non-visual senses include hearing, smell, and touch, as well as the extraordinary abilities of Blindsense, Scent and Tremorsense. This skill even encompasses that mysterious "sixth sense", or "gut-feeling", the feeling that someone is sneaking up behind you, or lying in wait in the next room.
Check: Your Sense check is either made against a DC set by the DM, or it is opposed by another's Sneak check. You can only make a Sense check when at least one of your non-visual senses could give you information.
Modifiers:
Success on a reactive check means you know the direction and approximate distance (close – 30ft, medium – 100ft, far – 400 ft; similar to spell ranges) to the subject. Success when using the Sense skill as a move action allows you to know the precise location of the subject (what grid square(s) the subject is in). In either case, the subject might still be hidden, have total cover or concealment, or be invisible.
Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to sense something in a reactive manner you can make a Sense check without using an action. Trying to sense something you failed to notice previously is a move action.
Try Again: Yes. You can try to sense something that you failed to notice previously at no penalty.
Special: If you are allowed to use either Spot or Sense for a check, you receive a +2 bonus to whichever you chose to roll. This represents the synergy of using all of your senses at once.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Spot, you get a +2 synergy bonus on Sense checks.
A fascinated creature takes a –4 penalty on Sense checks made as reactions.
If you have the Alertness feat, you get a +2 bonus on Sense checks.
A ranger gains a bonus on Sense checks when using this skill against a favored enemy.
An elf, gnome, or halfling has a +2 racial bonus on Sense checks.
A half-elf has a +1 racial bonus on Sense checks.
A sleeping character may make Sense checks at a –10 penalty. A successful check awakens the sleeper.
SNEAK (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Characters use the Sneak skill to hide in place, move without being seen or heard, and tread softly and quietly.
Check: Your Sneak check is opposed by either a Spot or a Sense check (not both) of anyone who might notice you. When opposing a Spot check, you must have either cover or concealment. If you have total cover or total concealment, opponents cannot use their Spot skill to find you, since no part of you is visible. Observers watching you before you Sneak succeed on their Spot checks automatically; you can run behind total cover and then Sneak, but observers at least know where you went.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Sneak checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.
You can move up to one-half your normal speed and Sneak at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while running or charging.
Distractions: If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a successful Bluff check), you can attempt a Sneak check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. The hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Sneak. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden from the target, as a full round action you can make one attack, then immediately hide in the same place again. This sort of attack is usually done with a ranged weapon, to take advantage of range penalties on Spot checks. You could make one melee attack, as long as you don’t have to move to a different square to do so. You take a –20 penalty on your Sneak check to conceal yourself after the sniping attack.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Sneak check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, sniping (see above) is a full round action.
Special: If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Sneak checks.
A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Sneak check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17th-level ranger can do this even while being observed.
SPOT (WIS)
Check: The Spot skill represents seeing, recognizing, and being able to react normally to creatures or objects. In order to use this skill, you must be able to “see” the subject, either with normal vision, darkvision, or blindsight. (Note: darkvision and blindsight typically have very short effective ranges, but negate some forms of concealment or cover.) A Spot check is only necessary if the subject is hidden or difficult to see, if the subject is disguised in some way, or at the beginning of encounters.
In brief, we've got three skills, new or revised: Sneak (formerly Hide and Move Silently), Spot (revised a bit, especially with respect to invisible creatures), and Sense (includes all non-visual senses, including Listen, Blindsense, Scent...).
Our game is futzing with this, and I appreciate your input. Have you used the Sneak skill for awhile? Any problems?
Our group discussed some of these changes here. The "Hide while attacking Shadowdancer" thread was also formative/helpful.
Here's the revised and added skill descriptions:
SENSE (WIS)
The Sense skill represents what all of your non-visual senses tell you about your surroundings. These non-visual senses include hearing, smell, and touch, as well as the extraordinary abilities of Blindsense, Scent and Tremorsense. This skill even encompasses that mysterious "sixth sense", or "gut-feeling", the feeling that someone is sneaking up behind you, or lying in wait in the next room.
Check: Your Sense check is either made against a DC set by the DM, or it is opposed by another's Sneak check. You can only make a Sense check when at least one of your non-visual senses could give you information.
- When a creature is hidden or difficult to notice, you roll either a Sense or a Spot check (not both), and that roll is opposed by the Sneak check of the hidden creature. If the subject is not intentionally Sneaking, its Sneak check is 0, modified by circumstance (see the Sneak skill description) and distance.
- If you are trying to sense something other than a creature’s location (such as to hear a muffled conversation, or to smell a campfire), the DM should determine an appropriate DC for your check.
- Either Spot or Sense checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins.
In many cases, the DM should roll your Sense check in secret, so you don't know if you were successful or not.
Modifiers:
- All Sense checks are penalized by distance (-1 per 10 feet) or if the character making the Sense check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant, -5 penalty).
- Sense can be used even if the subject has total cover, total concealment, or is invisible. A shut door between you and the subject increases the DC by +5; each 6 inch thickness of solid wall increases the DC by +10.
- The basis of the Sense skill is hearing. If you cannot hear (because you are deaf, being affected by a Silence spell, or some other reason), you make Sense checks at a -4 penalty.
- Blindsense, Scent, and Tremorsense each give a +4 bonus to Sense checks, but only for circumstances for which they are useful. For example, Scent could not help sense a creature without an odor, and Tremorsense could not help sense an opponent not in contact with the ground.
Success on a reactive check means you know the direction and approximate distance (close – 30ft, medium – 100ft, far – 400 ft; similar to spell ranges) to the subject. Success when using the Sense skill as a move action allows you to know the precise location of the subject (what grid square(s) the subject is in). In either case, the subject might still be hidden, have total cover or concealment, or be invisible.
Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to sense something in a reactive manner you can make a Sense check without using an action. Trying to sense something you failed to notice previously is a move action.
Try Again: Yes. You can try to sense something that you failed to notice previously at no penalty.
Special: If you are allowed to use either Spot or Sense for a check, you receive a +2 bonus to whichever you chose to roll. This represents the synergy of using all of your senses at once.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Spot, you get a +2 synergy bonus on Sense checks.
A fascinated creature takes a –4 penalty on Sense checks made as reactions.
If you have the Alertness feat, you get a +2 bonus on Sense checks.
A ranger gains a bonus on Sense checks when using this skill against a favored enemy.
An elf, gnome, or halfling has a +2 racial bonus on Sense checks.
A half-elf has a +1 racial bonus on Sense checks.
A sleeping character may make Sense checks at a –10 penalty. A successful check awakens the sleeper.
SNEAK (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Characters use the Sneak skill to hide in place, move without being seen or heard, and tread softly and quietly.
Check: Your Sneak check is opposed by either a Spot or a Sense check (not both) of anyone who might notice you. When opposing a Spot check, you must have either cover or concealment. If you have total cover or total concealment, opponents cannot use their Spot skill to find you, since no part of you is visible. Observers watching you before you Sneak succeed on their Spot checks automatically; you can run behind total cover and then Sneak, but observers at least know where you went.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Sneak checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.
You can move up to one-half your normal speed and Sneak at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while running or charging.
Distractions: If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a successful Bluff check), you can attempt a Sneak check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. The hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Sneak. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden from the target, as a full round action you can make one attack, then immediately hide in the same place again. This sort of attack is usually done with a ranged weapon, to take advantage of range penalties on Spot checks. You could make one melee attack, as long as you don’t have to move to a different square to do so. You take a –20 penalty on your Sneak check to conceal yourself after the sniping attack.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Sneak check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, sniping (see above) is a full round action.
Special: If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Sneak checks.
A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Sneak check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17th-level ranger can do this even while being observed.
SPOT (WIS)
Check: The Spot skill represents seeing, recognizing, and being able to react normally to creatures or objects. In order to use this skill, you must be able to “see” the subject, either with normal vision, darkvision, or blindsight. (Note: darkvision and blindsight typically have very short effective ranges, but negate some forms of concealment or cover.) A Spot check is only necessary if the subject is hidden or difficult to see, if the subject is disguised in some way, or at the beginning of encounters.
- When a creature is hidden or difficult to see, you roll either a Spot or a Sense check (not both), and that roll is opposed by the Sneak check of the hidden creature. If the subject is not intentionally Sneaking, its Sneak check is 0, modified by circumstance (see the Sneak skill description) and distance.
- Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise (see the Disguise skill), and to read lips (see below) when you can’t hear what someone is saying.
- Either Spot or Sense checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins.
All Spot checks are penalized by distance (-1 per 10 feet) or if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant, -5 penalty).
Read Lips: To understand what someone is saying by reading lips, you must be within 30 feet of the speaker, be able to see him or her speak, and understand the speaker’s language. (This use of the skill is language-dependent.) The base DC is 15, but it increases for complex speech or an inarticulate speaker. You must maintain a line of sight to the lips being read.
If your Spot check succeeds, you can understand the general content of a minute’s worth of speaking, but you usually still miss certain details. If the check fails by 4 or less, you can’t read the speaker’s lips. If the check fails by 5 or more, you draw some incorrect conclusion about the speech. The check is rolled secretly in this case, so that you don’t know whether you succeeded or missed by 5.
Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action. To read lips, you must concentrate for a full minute before making a Spot check, and you can’t perform any other action (other than moving at up to half speed) during this minute.
Try Again: Yes. You can try to Spot something that you failed to see previously at no penalty. You can attempt to read lips once per minute.
Special: If you could reasonably use either Spot or Sense for a check, you receive a +2 bonus to whichever you chose to roll. This represents the synergy of using all of your senses at once. A task that only uses sight (like reading lips, guarding while in a crowded and noisy room, or watching a far mountain top) does not get this bonus.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Sense, you get a +2 bonus on Spot checks.
Invisible creatures cannot be Spotted unless there are environmental clues, e.g. footprints in thick dust, wading through water, a driving rain, etc.. In such special cases, the invisible creature is still invisible, but you can Spot the square it is in. Circumstantial modifiers apply to this Spot check (rain dripping off invisible creature: -20, invisible creature wading through deep water: +20).
A fascinated creature takes a –4 penalty on Spot checks made as reactions.
If you have the Alertness feat, you get a +2 bonus on Spot checks.
A ranger gains a bonus on Spot checks when using this skill against a favored enemy.
An elf has a +2 racial bonus on Spot checks.
A half-elf has a +1 racial bonus on Spot checks.
The master of a hawk familiar gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in daylight or other lighted areas.
The master of an owl familiar gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in shadowy or other darkened areas.
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