D&D 3E/3.5 Hide and Shadowdancers in 3.5

[molonel]

I have a player who is going to play a monk/shadowdancer in a 10th level game I'm going to run. I haven't played shadowdancers in 3.5 rules, so I want to make a quick cheatsheat for the player, and make sure that I understand both the 3.5 hide rules, and 3.5 shadowdancers. Below, I have provided the cheatsheat that I made. Above are the questions I want to clarify:

QUESTIONS:

1. In the case where the tie goes to the defender, in the case of a tie between opposed rolls (hide versus spot) does the tie go to the one making the hide check? I assume so.
2. Does moving through the occupied square of someone who is hiding provoke any sort of special roll, or is someone automatically detected, according to the RAW?
3. Are there any additional penalties to hiding while observed? I know that HiPS does not require cover. But it is more difficult to hide while someone is observing you even if a special ability negates the need for cover or concealment?
4. There are different ways to detect someone who is hidden, including Tremorsense, Blindsense and Scent. Three rounds of Detect Magic would detect magic items on a person or creature, or magical effects, if they are within the range of the spell. Is there anything else?
5. Blindsight says, "Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object ... The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability." Does this mean that shadowdancers cannot hide from a creature with Blindsight, like a dragon?
6. If you are standing next to someone or something, and you attack with a melee weapon as a shadowdancer, can you then hide again in the same round? If you attack as a standard action, and you can hide as part of a move action, it seems like you could do so but at a -20 penalty. The rules about sniping are fairly clear. The rules about melee weapons are less so. If you attack with a melee weapon, and move away and hide in plain site, so that you strike
7. Going along the same lines as the last question, it seems impossible to move, attack and move/hide again unless you have Spring Attack. Is that correct?
7. Is it correct that even though HiPS is a supernatural ability, it does not require a standard action to activate?

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HERE IS MY CHEAT SHEET FOR THE PLAYER:

Hide skill:

1. Hide checks are an opposed roll against the Spot skill of anyone who might see you. The higher roll wins.
2. You can move at one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty.
3. While moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty to your hide skill.
4. If attacking, running or charging, you take a -20 penalty to your hide skill.
5. You can hide as part of a move. If you are not moving, does it require a move action anyway?
6. Does Hide in Plain Site require a standard action?
7. Hiding after a ranged attack is a move action.
8. Invisibility grants a +40 bonus to hide checks if you are immobile, and a +20 to hide checks if you are moving.

Bluff and the Hide skill:

1. You can momentarily distract observers using a bluff check. If your Bluff check succeeds, you may move to a hiding place that is within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide. Your hide check is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

Sniping at the Hide skill:

1. If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

Hide in Plain Sight:
1. Hide in Plain Sight is a supernatural (Su) ability, which means that it does not function in an area such as an Anti-Magic Shell, or a null magic area, or anything similar.
2. In order to use the special ability Hide in Plain Sight, a Shadowdancer must be within 10 feet of some sort of shadow. You cannot hide in your own

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

1. In the case where the tie goes to the defender, in the case of a tie between opposed rolls (hide versus spot) does the tie go to the one making the hide check? I assume so.

First, the DM rolls the hide check of the player. Say it equals 20. That sets the DC to find the player. For someone to "spot" the PC, they must meet or beat the 20 on their spot check.

2. Does moving through the occupied square of someone who is hiding provoke any sort of special roll, or is someone automatically detected, according to the RAW?

I'd give it the same chance of finding a player as when "groping around" to find invisible enemies. 50% chance of running into the hidden character.

3. Are there any additional penalties to hiding while observed? I know that HiPS does not require cover. But it is more difficult to hide while someone is observing you even if a special ability negates the need for cover or concealment?

The 3.5 SRD says specifically that a shadowdancer can hide in plain sight, within 10' of shadows even while being observed. It makes no mention of any penalties. Normal rogue hiding while being observed CANNOT hide.

4. There are different ways to detect someone who is hidden, including Tremorsense, Blindsense and Scent. Three rounds of Detect Magic would detect magic items on a person or creature, or magical effects, if they are within the range of the spell. Is there anything else?

True seeing, beat a hidden persons move silently by 20 to pinpoint, see invisibility spell and invisibility purge.

5. Blindsight says, "Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object ... The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability." Does this mean that shadowdancers cannot hide from a creature with Blindsight, like a dragon?

Correct, a shadowdancer could not hide from a creature with blindsight.

6. If you are standing next to someone or something, and you attack with a melee weapon as a shadowdancer, can you then hide again in the same round? If you attack as a standard action, and you can hide as part of a move action, it seems like you could do so but at a -20 penalty. The rules about sniping are fairly clear. The rules about melee weapons are less so. If you attack with a melee weapon, and move away and hide in plain site, so that you strike

There was a whole thread on the sniping subject, look it up for opinions. As for melee, to be able to hit something and move away you'd provoke an AoO. So unless you are hasted, you cannot hit something then hide again.

7. Going along the same lines as the last question, it seems impossible to move, attack and move/hide again unless you have Spring Attack. Is that correct?

I'd say you wouldn't be able to hide, the spring attack merely allows you to "split" your move action into 2 pieces, and hiding requires a full move action to complete. I still say you need to be hasted to perform the hide action after everything.

8. Is it correct that even though HiPS is a supernatural ability, it does not require a standard action to activate?

Correct, HiPS is a supernatural ability that takes a move action. The shadowdancer is NOT slowed down to requiring standard actions to hide.



Actually, the hiding invidividual SETS the DC of the spot check, then you roll the spot check. If it MEETS OR BEATS the total of the hide, then the player is seen by the person who was able to meet or beat that DC.
As for your cheat sheet, HiPS requires only a move action, as per the normal hide skill.
If you are not moving as part of the hide action, it still takes a move action.

Calrin Alshaw

 

[Camarath]

1. In the case where the tie goes to the defender, in the case of a tie between opposed rolls (hide versus spot) does the tie go to the one making the hide check? I assume so.

From SRD
"Opposed Checks
An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher skill modifier wins. If these scores are the same, roll again to break the tie."

 

[Camarath]

True seeing, beat a hidden persons move silently by 20 to pinpoint, see invisibility spell and invisibility purge.

I do not believe that any of those spells will work against creatures who are Hiding. True Seeing states that "True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means". See Invisibility states "It does not reveal creatures who are simply hiding, concealed, or otherwise hard to see". And Invisibility Purge would not work because being hidden is not the same as being invisible.

There was a whole thread on the sniping subject, look it up for opinions.

Hide in Plain Sight and Sniping

 

[Diirk]

As far as the whole hiding/fighting thing goes, the description of the hide skill gives the distinct impression that if you make your opposed hide check at the -20 penalty, you can attack in melee and remain hidden. Of course your opponent would know where you are, but if you're hidden he'll have a 50% miss chance against you.

If you attacked, then moved and hid you wouldn't take the -20 penalty, as you aren't doing it while attacking... the sniping description is in no way relevant to this, as you aren't making a ranged attack, and its quite a different situation. So yes, imo, as a shadowdancer you could potentially make a full attack against someone and remain hidden the whole time... I don't really have a problem with this, an arcane trickster could do the same thing with improved invisibility.

As for the move, attack, move/hide bit.. there's no reason you couldn't do that with spring attack. Hide is NOT a move action, its simply something you do as part of your movement. Check the hide skill description.

 

[Majere]

Ok borrowing some quotes from other people to try and tie it all together

QUESTIONS:

1)"Opposed Checks
An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher skill modifier wins. If these scores are the same, roll again to break the tie."
2) Moving through a threat range always provoke an attack of opportunity according to the RAW. However apply common sense here, in a non combat situation if the defender fails both his spot AND listen checks there is no reason to give them an AOO. If you do give the defender an AOO the shadowdancer counts as invisible (-2 to attack rools, 50% miss chance)
3) Normally you cannt ever hide while observed. HiPS allows you to hide while observed, there is no penalty to do this.
4+5) Truesight/see invis will not work. Tremorsense, blind sense, 3 rounds of det magic in which the shaodwdancer doesnt move and if the rogue is wearing magic items will work.
6) You could attack a person and "Attack while hidden", you take a -20 on your hide roll. Alternatively you can attack, move away and hide normally. There is no penalty to this hide roll but you take an attack of opportunity.
7) You cant move,attack,move unless you are hasted or have spring attack. In this case your hide would be part of the move and not part of the attack. No penalty unless you move more than half your movement when hiding.
8) HiPS is indeed SU and does not need activating. In effect it lets you hide under circumstances you could not normally hide, i.e while being observed or without anything to hide behind. Other than that is does not give any bonus to hiding.

CHEET SHEET
Hide:
5. Yes
6. No
7. Or you can hide while attacking, and hide at -20 as part of the attack action. This allows you to take a full attack and remain hidden.

Bluff and the Hide skill:
1. A character with HiPS never needs to use bluff, as they can hide while being observed anyway.

Sniping at the Hide skill:
1. HiPS kinda makes sniping irrelevent. But for completeness
The character may take one shot after which he is considered "Observed" and normally could not hide.
A Character with HiPS may take a single shot and then hide with his move action at no penalty
A Character with HiPS may take his full attack and hide while attacking at a -20 penlalty.
These are options not available to characters without HiPS because you need HiPS to hide while observed.

Hide in Plain Sight:
1. Correct. (As my rogue found out to some cost when he fell in an antimagic zone inside a high wall castle and 10 huge gargoyles attacked him)
2. Correct.
The not hiding in your own shadow this is simply to limit the power. Otherwise the shadowdacer could use his power without limit, its very rare YOU dont cast a shadow.
It also stops rediculous paradoxes like, if Im hiding in my own shadow, do I cast a shadow?